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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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Clatter wrote: |
I have a set of the CB elephant feet running on a type 1 with Web 163 and heavy springs shimmed tight.
This with 1.1 rockers..
Many others run these with way heavier setups.
Your mild bus cam and single springs will be fine.
No need to spend $$$$ on the good feet.
Only excuse for the bigger swivel feet is not being able to find some 1.7 rockers. |
That is nice to hear! I have heard good things about the CB feet....but I just had not yet heard of the consistency...from set to set...over long periods of time. You know they have to be made...someplace "C-heap"...but that does not mean they have to be bad. I just do not have any long term set to set data on them....compared to the Porsche variety.
Ray |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5407 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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For T4 swivel feet, the only reasonable options are;
1) Genuine Mahle / Wizemann 911 adjusters for 8mm rockers
2) Thorsten Pieper adjusters for 10mm rockers
CB, EMPI, Bugpack, etc… AVOID! _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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MikeyM73 Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2016 Posts: 506 Location: Napa Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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Hey all,
Happy Friday. Thanks for all the input. I found a place that sells the 8mm Mahle swivels for 17.49 each which is the best price I've found so far. I'll call them Monday to confirm they're the real deal but and, if so, 140 bucks is pretty damn good for a set of 8. I have my old 1.7 rockers, adjusters, nuts, shafts, spacers, etc. and my rocker stand shims just came in so I think I'll be set. I don't think I'll need shorter PRs but we shall see.
Thanks,
Mikey _________________ '73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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Vanapplebomb wrote: |
For T4 swivel feet, the only reasonable options are;
1) Genuine Mahle / Wizemann 911 adjusters for 8mm rockers
2) Thorsten Pieper adjusters for 10mm rockers
CB, EMPI, Bugpack, etc… AVOID! |
You yourself had a set of CB swivel feet fail?
What were the specs on the motor that had the failure? _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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MikeyM73 wrote: |
Hey all,
Happy Friday. Thanks for all the input. I found a place that sells the 8mm Mahle swivels for 17.49 each which is the best price I've found so far. I'll call them Monday to confirm they're the real deal but and, if so, 140 bucks is pretty damn good for a set of 8. I have my old 1.7 rockers, adjusters, nuts, shafts, spacers, etc. and my rocker stand shims just came in so I think I'll be set. I don't think I'll need shorter PRs but we shall see.
Thanks,
Mikey |
I’d go ahead and get the bigger rocker stand studs and a spacer set (shaft wavy washer elimination kit) while you’re at it for peace of mind.
Cheap insurance.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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MikeyM73 Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2016 Posts: 506 Location: Napa Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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Hi all,
So Len's heads are installed and I'm working on the VT geometry. It looks like the rocker shaft stands on the AMC heads are a bit taller? than the OEM heads, effectively raising the rocker shaft just a bit from where it was in relation to the PRs and valve stems. I asked Len about this and he said:
"I suspected that would be the case with the increased clearance over your old heads.
The old heads had had a valve job, which decreases clearance.
The old heads had been flycut. That also decreases clearance.
The new heads are set up with the valve stem hts on the short side of the factory spec. This increases clearance.
They haven't been flycut deep.
Sounds like it's going to work out well."
Such a nice guy and great to work with. So for me, this works our perfectly because my VT geometry looks just about perfect now. Before you could visually see how shorter PRs or rocker stand shims would be needed - still need to set up a dial indicator but I don't think it will be far off.
Now for my quesiton - what kind of Dremmel bits did you all use to chamfer the bottoms of the rocker arms? The round ball bit?
Thanks,
Mikey _________________ '73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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send them to Bug1967 in Los Angeles https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2489500
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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MikeyM73 Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2016 Posts: 506 Location: Napa Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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Nice. Thanks Steve.
Mikey _________________ '73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway. |
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Hoody Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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You are going to drop 1500 on a set of “art” for heads. To my knowledge no one else is building type 4 heads in this country to the level of excellence that Len is. Now if it were me I would contact Len personally and ask him what his experience has been with his customers running these adjusters. It’s too bad Jake is no longer sharing his infinite R&D because then you would have your answer as he would have tried his best to either destroy them or know exactly what needed to be done to tweak them to perfection. So what I am getting at is that you may not get a chance at another set of Ham heads. The tried and true proven beyond any doubt is to use the modified 1700 rockers with Genuine Porsche 911 adjusters and have someone who really knows what they are doing to set up the valve train geometry. Yes the Genuine Porsche ones have quadrupled in price. But is it worth saving a couple hundred bucks to roll the dice? I read that Len was encouraged by these when they first came out but that was several years ago. So I would contact him snd ask him his opinion. Hope this helps. |
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vacca_rabite Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2021 Posts: 72 Location: PA
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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For what its worth...
I've got a 2056 TIV that runs Porsche elephant feet. It's run great. I built the engine 10 years ago using the best knowledge that was available at the time, using the best parts at the time with a ton of care going into the valve train adjustment and alignment. And that engine runs really well. At the time Jake was still running the TIV Store, and the ONLY elephant feet he would sell were Porsche.
This year I am having a 2.3 TIV made for me through a reputable shop (PMB Performance in Utah). When I asked about the valve train, Eric told me his engine guy will not build engines any longer with them. He said that all of them, including the recent ones sold through Porsche, fail at about 40-50K miles when used on a TIV. He also noted that elephant feet don't spin the valve they way a solid adjuster does. I've known Eric for as long as I've been playing with aircooled cars. When it came to my money, I went with his advice and won't have the elephant feet in my new motor.
Then again - if you don't drive your aircooled all that often, 40-50K miles could be a lifetime.
Zach |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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vacca_rabite wrote: |
For what its worth...
I've got a 2056 TIV that runs Porsche elephant feet. It's run great. I built the engine 10 years ago using the best knowledge that was available at the time, using the best parts at the time with a ton of care going into the valve train adjustment and alignment. And that engine runs really well. At the time Jake was still running the TIV Store, and the ONLY elephant feet he would sell were Porsche.
This year I am having a 2.3 TIV made for me through a reputable shop (PMB Performance in Utah). When I asked about the valve train, Eric told me his engine guy will not build engines any longer with them. He said that all of them, including the recent ones sold through Porsche, fail at about 40-50K miles when used on a TIV. He also noted that elephant feet don't spin the valve they way a solid adjuster does. I've known Eric for as long as I've been playing with aircooled cars. When it came to my money, I went with his advice and won't have the elephant feet in my new motor.
Then again - if you don't drive your aircooled all that often, 40-50K miles could be a lifetime.
Zach |
The "elephant feet"...do not spin the valve. They never have. Also even with stock adjusters....they are only partially responsible for valve rotation. They only assist a little.
The valve spring...through helical loading and unloading...is the PRIMARY power behind rotating the valve.
I have probably about 1/2 a million miles on type 4 engines ...specifically with Porsche elephant feet adjuster during those miles. The valves had plenty of rotation. I have many more miles with stock adjusters.
However....I do not doubt...that he has seen valves that cease to rotate....or show signs of rotating a lot less. So I'm not saying your guy Eric is wrong....but he is wrong to attribute this to the swivel feet. The whole premise of these parts is to relieve virtually all sliding action against the valve stem and allow the foot/cup to be a moveable joint. It and the ball inside takes the wear.
I have spoken to a few people who have been building for a long time and seen peculiarities like this.
But in their quest to find out why....they start ticking off the list of minor, subtle changes or "improvements" they have been making over their years of building engines as they learn new things and build new configurations......and the few I have spoken to are fairly sure that a handful of OTHER changes they have made....are the culprit for less...not totally ceased...but less....valve rotation.
These are items like grinding the keepers/collets to prevent edge contact ...which is really smart....with regard to to preventing wear on the grooves and pull through on the retainer....but can almost totally prevent valve rotation that occurs between collets and valve stem.
And depending on how well the collets are wedged in the retainer....that may prevent some valve rotation as well.
Then you have changes to type of valve springs some of these guys have been using over the years. Using a spring with a shallower helix angle...can prevent a lot of rotation.
Heads with shims in the pockets (only some really need them)...rotate very little if the lower end of the spring digs into the head.
I have never seen valve rotation issues with swivel feet. Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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vacca_rabite wrote: |
For what its worth...
I've got a 2056 TIV that runs Porsche elephant feet. It's run great. I built the engine 10 years ago using the best knowledge that was available at the time, using the best parts at the time with a ton of care going into the valve train adjustment and alignment. And that engine runs really well. At the time Jake was still running the TIV Store, and the ONLY elephant feet he would sell were Porsche.
This year I am having a 2.3 TIV made for me through a reputable shop (PMB Performance in Utah). When I asked about the valve train, Eric told me his engine guy will not build engines any longer with them. He said that all of them, including the recent ones sold through Porsche, fail at about 40-50K miles when used on a TIV. He also noted that elephant feet don't spin the valve they way a solid adjuster does. I've known Eric for as long as I've been playing with aircooled cars. When it came to my money, I went with his advice and won't have the elephant feet in my new motor.
Then again - if you don't drive your aircooled all that often, 40-50K miles could be a lifetime.
Zach |
That is why I put the solid factory ones back in. My gut told me that these aftermarket ones weren't the quality of the older Porsche ones. I confirmed that when inspecting them after a simple break in, and saw that it was my bad for not inspecting them more closely before installing them. The contact surfaces were not properly finished. If I have to properly finish every new part for the manufacturer then what is the purpose of upgrading a part? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Hoody Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters |
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I have to wonder if the Wizemann adjusters have now changed since being takin over by Mahle. It appears that they are now made in Mexico. Shocking that another company merged with Mahle has turned to shit. The guys at Auto Atlanta could not answer my question as to whether the Genuine Porsche ones were the same as the MW ones that were at least 15 dollars less per adjuster. I am going to contact LN and talk to them. They will have a definitive answer. Thanks for the heads up! |
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