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greebly
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Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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 Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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| dgbeatty wrote: |
Of course others are free to do what they like in the US but remember that a fire extinguisher is useless against a live circuit. |
This is why I have a battery disconnect within reach of the drivers seat. I would recommend it highly, not only for it's antitheft properties, but in the case of an electrical problem. $5.00 at Allelectronics. This model is rated for 100 amps. Suggest you buy two to have a spare. https://www.allelectronics.com/item/isw-20/battery-disconnect-switch/1.html The "key" is removable. |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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Greebly is absolutely correct with the idea of battery disconnects. The idea of an unfused #8 wire going directly to the AC relay area scares the hell out of me. I took an 8 from the alternator to my 500 watt inverter and stuck this circuit breaker in before the wire passes through anything.
And break the ground. That will kill everything except the clock and radio memory which you ran a bypass ground to with a super low amp fuse so a dead short would blow it and stop any electrical fuel to a potential fire. In another T3 I had a short in the ignition switch plug and it's pretty scary having dripping plastic wire insulation landing on your leg and no way to kill the power.
In reviewing all this, I'm toying with the idea of building a box which would house all the potential over warm relays and have it half inside at the normal relay location and half into the D pillar snorkel with a way for heat to be exhausted to the outside. And having it all in a 50 caliber ammo box or equivalent, no bad stuff could happen to the car itself. |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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Just sent Dave K an idea for the DS evaporator support pillar.
I wonder if you ran the AC without the pillar in place and held something smoking up in the general area of where the hoses go into the housing if air would be drawn in. If so, it seems like it might make sense to put some screened holes in the pillar just below the hot relays for some cooling help. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32594
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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I had a great conversation with a former Vanagon guy today.
I had called him to say THANK YOU for all that I learned from him about A/C in general and Vanagon A/C specifically.
I told him how well it is working.
He then asked what was wrong? Why did I rebuild the system.
I told him about the high speed fan relay catching on fire and how a PO had disconnected hoses and broke drain tubes trying to fix it.
I then told him what I was planning to do to prevent future fires.
I plan to use the fan switch as a relay control.
Run a separate strong power feed from the Alternator and relay every speed.
He thought that this is rather an over kill reaction to a problem that few seem to have.
I explained that more reports of A/C fires seem to be rising to the surface.
He eventually agreed that there is no harm in the rewire but seems like a lot f work for possibly a non problem.
I chuckled ……. Sitting here with a Van damaged by overheated A/C wiring!
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32594
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32594
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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greebly
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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Part II: Installing a relay in the front to uncouple the AC relay (and the radiator thermoswitch) from running the Low speed radiator fan. Starting at the Thermoswitch I pulled a 14 Guage wire and using a 6.3mm female spade with a locking tab I ganged the wire (blue) to the 12 volt DC source from 30 amp Fuse F1. This will be my supply to relay terminal 30.
Disconnecting the fused 12 volt source from the connector. (Red wire with white strip on my van)
Ganging a wire and installing the terminal to the radiator fan thermoswitch connector. Unfortunately the 6.3 mm terminals I have will not support crimping two 14 guage wires reliably. I used .28 buss wire to wrap them after crimping them and then soldered them.
Releasing the low speed terminal from the resistor connector behind the left side headlight. The low speed terminal has two wires In my case red with a black stripe. One wire is from the thermoswitch, the other is from the AC relay in back. This terminal can be installed directly to the relay socket Coil terminal #85 This is what will activate the new relay instead of powering the fan through the resistor.
The new 12 volt supply from the thermoswitch (blue) connected to the load contact Common terminal 30 of the relay socket(yellow). The socket I aquired already had wire leads installed using a 12 guage wire for the load terminals. Again I used .28 gauge buss wire to wrap the wires and soldered them, Heat shrink was used over the splice. This type of splice is called a NASA splice. It is far stronger that crimp connections and more reliable electrically. If both wires are the same guage the splice will be the same diameter of the wire and can be pulled through penetrations. Just mind that you do not wick solder into either wire at it's insulation typically you want a 1/4" on each side without solder. This allows the joint to have flexibity under vibration where a stiffened connection will break.
The 40 amp relay that was replaced in the AC panel is ideal for this application, I am seeing 13 aps on this circuit. Note the white wire of the relay socket terminal 86 is grounded to the frame of the van. The Normally Open terminal of the relay socket(terminal #87) is the 12 guage red wire. I installed a 6.3mm locking tab terminal on it and installed it into the 3 terminal connector going to the reisitor pack.It installs into the vacant slot precviously occupied by the two Red with black strip wires.
The results at the rear AC panel main fuse: 3.2 amps while using blower speed position 2
and 33.6 amps using blower speed position 4.
a reduction from the rear of 12-13 amps ( maybe more for you, my rad fan is new) |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32594
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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dobryan
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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jimf909 
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Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7466
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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Ahh, the NASA splice. The youtube rabbit hole took about 15 minutes. @greebly, thanks for describing it.
Link
A bit tedious but interesting...
Link
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- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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greebly
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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| djkeev wrote: |
How are you going to weatherize that relay socket assembly behind the headlight?
Dave |
I was suprised how crunchy the three point connector was going to the resistor pack. I believe I missed it when I did all the outside connectors some years ago. The teminals were not corroded, just filthy. I cleaned them, greased them and sealed both ends of the connector, the relay socket base and the base of the relay with silicone. I had to do the relay because the corners were cut off to remove the cover for the forensic picture I posted earlier. I also siliconed the ground ring teminal I installed to prevent it from snapping under vibration. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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While looking for some switches, came across this company https://www.dashswitches.com/collections/dash-swit...ton-series
They make this and it's rated for 20 amps. Might solve the speed 1 and 2 problem.
A cleva fella should be able to use the OG knob.
They also have this and make an 80 amp one too. I'll bet this would solve the heat problem on speeds 3 and 4.
Duncan |
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greebly
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Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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I got some parts in and found the time to change the fuse bases and Ground connector for the blowers. I'll change out the power connector tomorrow. I wanted to get a comparison between the new and old. I used 12 guage wire instead of the original 14 guage. As you can see by the pictures the Anderson connectors and terminas are larger with greater contact area. The old Ground setup vs the new.
The difference between the new Anderson terminals and the old 6.3mm spade terminal.
The following temperatures were taken with an ambient outside temperature of 88 F The original supply connector to the fans after 2 minutes of operation at blower speed 4 was reading 222 degrees F the wires coming off the connector were too hot to touch. (Keep in mind that I had seen temperatures on both connectors at around 287 F. after around 10 minutes of blower operation)
The ground connectors for the blowers was 94.4 degrees F. a differential of 127.6 degrees. Keep in mind that current flow is identical in both these connectors and wiring, The ground wires were slightly warm, easily touchable. I took measurements through the bottom of the connector directly on the teminals, they were under 100 degrees.
I will change the supply connector tomorrow. I will try to find adequate place to mount the fan and the 50 amp thermal breaker. My take at this point is that they will be beneficial but the main takeaway for AC modifications to limit the potential for fire is to replace the Blower relay with a 70 amp relay (saw a 50 degree drop in exterior temperatures on the relay) rewire the radiator low speed fan circuit using a relay to uncouple the current draw at the AC panel in the pillar ( Saw a 13 amp reduction in current on the strip fuse, this reduces heat within the AC relay itself) and to replace the Blower supply and Ground connectors to reduce resistance and heat in the panel. Once I replace the supply connector I will do some further current measurements. |
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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
Posts: 1115
Location: over by 'der
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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I'm starting to do this on my van and have a question. After uncoupling the radiator fan from the AC relay and adding a relay in the front, does the radiator fan speed 1 still come on when the AC is switched on?
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'90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
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greebly
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Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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| Yes fan speed one will still work |
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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
Posts: 1115
Location: over by 'der
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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Great, thanks! I had my ac working great tied into my EJ22 system a few years ago, but last year I lost fan speeds 1-3 and it isn't holding vacuum over 29HG anymore. I believe the problem there is likely within the one old hose left in the system or something up in the evaporator/expansion valve. All the other hoses/condenser/drier are all only about 4 years old. For the fan speeds not working, there's no blown fuses so I think its either the switch or the resistor packs in the evaporator housing. I'm gonna dig into all of that and do these wiring improvements while I'm in there. I already have a different relay wired in to power my compressor clutch.
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'90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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There are a bunch of AC topics under FAQS, of which this is from one if it's a switch. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9824699#9824699
djkeev just rebuilt his AC and his postings thoroughly cover all kinds of issues.
A must read for going forward.
| DuncanS wrote: |
While looking for some switches, came across this company https://www.dashswitches.com/collections/dash-swit...ton-series
They make this and it's rated for 20 amps. Might solve the speed 1 and 2 problem.
A cleva fella should be able to use the OG knob.
They also have this and make an 80 amp one too. I'll bet this would solve the heat problem on speeds 3 and 4.
Duncan |
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Abscate
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Posts: 22648
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Air Conditioning wiring issues and improvements. 89-91 |
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The wiring practices upthread are absolutely Gold standard.
With heat shrink, you don’t have to worry about wicking so much as it will strain relief the joint from damage.
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