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Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage
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tates1882
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Location: Southwest Idaho
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

Well, I opened a big old can of worms attempting to replace a leaking CV output flange seal and now need some Samba wisdom. I have a subie conversion with smallcar bellhousing, the old style BH I believe. Recently while servicing a leak I noticed the plastic caps on both of the CV output flanges at the transaxle show damage that looks like the axle shaft was grinding into them. The center of each cap is worn completely though. Assuming the axle shaft lengths are not the culprit could the final drive be shifting side to side. According to SC's installation instructions for the bellhousing the aluminum retaining nuts behind the output flanges need to be removed to add the shaft spacer, if the nuts were not installed back to the original position (depth) could the final drive be shifting side to side?

Or I was running some cheap axle sets from RMW(before the merge with VC) could they have been a bit long?

Any other ideas on what could grind the center front of the plastic caps? Maybe an improper wheel alignment? I don't think the trailing arms could move inboard far enough to cause the shafts to grind.
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Last edited by tates1882 on Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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shagginwagon83
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

I don't think the bell housing matters. I added the RJES bell housing and didn't need to change anything on the transaxle.

Can you provide some photos?
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"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
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tates1882
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

shagginwagon83 wrote:
I don't think the bell housing matters. I added the RJES bell housing and didn't need to change anything on the transaxle.

Can you provide some photos?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Both sides have the same damage. When I bought the van in 2016 one of the CVs was shot, so I slapped on a set of cheap FEQ axles from RMW until I could get time and funds for 944 joints. I don't recall if the caps were damaged when I swapped the axles but I remember the transaxle was oil saturated around the flanges. Fast forward to 2020 I finally got the time to do the 944's. I thought the axle shafts I took off in 2016 were VW OEM and that's what I pressed the new cv's onto. I do recall the the cap was damaged in 2020 but I was not aware that the cap was not suppose to look like that. Fast forward to this summer and over winter the saturated transaxle flanges turned into quite the drip.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

There are DIY tool marks on the retaining nuts behind the output flanges and no match marks. Given the age of the conversion 2011-2012 with it being smallcar I think the DIY didn't match the lashing for the diff via the match marked retains nuts causing the diff to shift.


It may have been a blessing I damaged the outer race bearing for the differential while puling the flange seal. Just is a boner deal for $25 worth of seals to balloon into $4k worth of work- trans rebuild, fly resurface, new pressure plate, friction disc, slave and bearing, rear main seal and oil separator plate. I have a 2.5 I was gonna swap the ej22 out for but gonna sell it to fund the tranny. ARGH and UGH!
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

Are your axle shaft the correct length?

There are different length shafts notably automatics have one loner shaft.

Did you have the foresight to save the removed OE axles?

With noted exceptions, OE is almost always preferred over after market crap!

I would be pulling out a tape measure!

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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tates1882
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Are your axle shaft the correct length?

There are different length shafts notably automatics have one loner shaft.

Did you have the foresight to save the removed OE axles?

With noted exceptions, OE is almost always preferred over after market crap!

I would be pulling out a tape measure!

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes I'm aware the autos have different shafts, mine is a manual. I saved the first axles but can't recall if they were OEM or not. The 944 cvs were pressed onto these axles. Do you happen to know if the OEM axles are marked in any way?
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

I honestly don't know much about manual axle shafts.

I have read that even the manuals have length differences going back to the Air Cooled and Diesel days.
But I recall no details.

Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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hardway
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

The blue steel and rubber plug in your hand with a hole in it is just a plug. You just need to put a new one in. You do not need to touch the bearings or adjusters.

That hole sure looks like impact damage to me. I have been putting a lot of Chinese axles into the scrap pile lately. Mostly due to complaints of knocking and one CV that shattered. The one that shattered showed something interesting in the autopsy. The balls were riding at the outboard end of the races. Some of them escaped and caused the traumatic finale. Many of the knocking complaints could be duplicated by grabbing the axle shaft and moving it in and out. The axle shafts were actually hitting the stub axle or drive flange (plug).

These axles had very excessive end float. The real axles will not do this. Again, autopsies showed the balls riding on the outboard end of the races at both ends. These were axles with a different number of spines that would not accept OE CVs

The damage to the plug in your photo could be caused by this excessive end float. If it were caused by excess play in the final drive carrier bearing then you would more and very severe symptoms.
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tates1882
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

hardway wrote:


The damage to the plug in your photo could be caused by this excessive end float. If it were caused by excess play in the final drive carrier bearing then you would more and very severe symptoms.
Thank you. That is what I was wondering. I highly doubted the final drive would have been shifting without something more noticeable.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

Why did you go to 944 CV joints in the first place?
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tates1882
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing (old style) and CV output flange damage Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Why did you go to 944 CV joints in the first place?

I'm pushing 225/65r17 w/ spacers and still rub a bit when off road. The plan was to lift the van a bit so the 944's allow for a bit more articulation from what I understand.
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