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Mathew Zelezen Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2004 Posts: 547 Location: Graeagle, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:52 pm Post subject: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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I've had a growling noise which I eventually isolated to the front passenger side (old post was leaning towards the Diff but thankfully that wasn't the case).
I pulled the hub and this is what I found:
You can see the outer race is still on the hub.. and I think that's the circlip as well.
Shouldn't the circlip have prevented this from coming out?
So is this hub toast? And if so where do I find another? Of course its a Saturday and all the usual vendors are closed but I don't see any on their sites or anywhere really.
Any leads on where I can pick one up? _________________ 87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans
Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9613 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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The outer race is a light press-fit onto the hub. If a new bearing race still press-fits onto the hub it’s probably OK.
You have to get the inner race off.
Its not easy. Some people cut them off with a Dremel etc.
If you pressed it off, that would tell you if theres still a press fit at the outer bearing location.
Here’s a “shot” hub.
I’m guessing yours is OK.
Can you measure any reduced diameter?
Those divots from the previous mechanic aren’t anything to worry about as long as they’re not high.
I don’t recall seeing shims behind my inner bearing race.
Are you sure that exploded diagram is T3 Syncro?
Vendors don’t have new hubs, they are NLA.
You have to locate a good used hub. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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there was a guy who had some brandy new ones made, but I don't see the ad on Samba anymore.
you can also posibly use some loctite sleeve retaining stuff if you're concerned
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/products/industrial-adhesives/retaining-compounds.html
Quote: |
As a type of anaerobic adhesive, retaining compounds are essential for the precision assembly of press- and slip-fitted parts, as well as any component that is used within systems subject to high vibration in challenging environmental conditions. Capable of filling spaces between individual components, they cure to form a strong bond and allow for the transmission of high loads without the need for air. This means sealed components and machine designs can still achieve high strength and temperature resistance across a variety of substrates.
Used across a broad range of mechanical components, as well as for bearings, shafts, and cylinder liners, retaining compounds are most commonly found within the automotive and heavy machinery industries. However, they can also be used in any industry where metal-to-metal adhesion is required for moving parts. Additionally, retaining compounds help manufacturers to avoid unnecessary machining of a broad range of mechanical components during MRO.
There are a number of reasons electrically high strength retaining compounds might be chosen over other methods of bonding and adhesion, and the advantages are clear. In fact, any type of component that will be under stress, that has a small adhesion area, and that is found within moving machinery, can benefit from retaining compounds. Moreover, any component that is at risk of fretting leading to corrosion can benefit from these materials to reduce wear and potential failure during operation.
For more information on individual products or the retaining compound range, contact one of our advisors today to discuss you needs and specific application |
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Mathew Zelezen Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2004 Posts: 547 Location: Graeagle, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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Sodo,
Thanks for the optimism.
Yeah you"re right. "Discontinued" is all I'm finding with searches.
That exploded diagram is from GoWesty's website.
I'm confused what the "shims" are between my hub and the race as well.
And shouldn't the circlip have held this outer bearing race in place?
Dan,
That's a solid idea. And I did see those new hubs from that guy in Norway a while back but can't find them online anywhere either. _________________ 87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans
Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9613 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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I think the guy in Norway cast Stainless Steel rear wheel bearing housings. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6833 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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As a last resort if you cannot find one anywhere find a really good machine shop with welding capabilities.
They can weld multiple beads all around the bearing surface to build it up and then turn it down to correct size on a lathe.
I know of crankshafts being done this way where the could not find a replacement anywhere. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9613 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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Those 3 shims are ‘significant’.
I’d wanna know what thats all about before reassembly.
That shim between the two races doesn’t make sense,
Maybe that’s not a Syncro bearing?
Maybe that hub has already been “repaired”.
Here’s a rough sketch of the assembly.
I sketched this in 2016, and was positive that someone would post a “real” drawing shortly.
Could it be this is the only Syncro front wheel bearing diagram on the earth?
And in all of Germany?
It sure would be great if someone with skills and Van-time on their hands…..
would make a real drawing, or even a CAD drawing of thi Syncro front wheel bearing assembly with seals and everything. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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So long as the inner race fits tight and square on the hub the hub is likely okay and the nicks and gouges wouldn't hurt any thing, at least if they aren't where the lip of the seal runs.
Last edited by Wildthings on Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hans j Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 2715 Location: Salt Lake City UT
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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Not necessarily. You need to get the other inner race off to compare to. Just because it has gouges in it, doesn't mean it won't fit correctly. If it's worn down, that's when there is a problem. _________________ 1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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hans j Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 2715 Location: Salt Lake City UT
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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And for inner race removal, this is the way
Link
_________________ 1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9613 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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hans j wrote: |
And for inner race removal, this is the way |
that rules! _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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hans j wrote: |
Not necessarily. You need to get the other inner race off to compare to. Just because it has gouges in it, doesn't mean it won't fit correctly. If it's worn down, that's when there is a problem. |
If you are referring to my post, that is pretty much what I said. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9613 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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Wildthings wrote: |
nicks and gouges wouldn't hurt any thing, at least if they aren't where the lip of the seal runs. |
I’d also file those off as a matter of principle.
The seal doesn’t run there but they could nick the seal during assembly. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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Sodo wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
nicks and gouges wouldn't hurt any thing, at least if they aren't where the lip of the seal runs. |
I’d also file those off as a matter of principle.
The seal doesn’t run there but they could nick the seal during assembly. |
Agreed, it looks like some ape worked on this hub previously. |
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Mathew Zelezen Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2004 Posts: 547 Location: Graeagle, CA
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? |
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That's a great video hans j! I wish I had a vise and a torch but I'm in a campground right now so that brings its own challenges.
Sodo, I don't think your picture needs any improvements.. and its in COLOR! And since the internet is forever that drawing will be around longer than we will be! Hahaha!
OK, I'll either score the race and hit it with a chisel or have it pulled and we'll see what the deal is with the mystery spacers.
And I'll do what I can to "de-ape" the rim of the hub to prevent any damage to seals.
I'll report back with some pics when I get this thing apart.
I'm an ER Nurse and I work the next two nights so hopefully by Tuesday I'll know more.
As always, thanks for the help! _________________ 87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans
Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32625 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Mathew Zelezen Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2004 Posts: 547 Location: Graeagle, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? {SOLVED} |
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Got a bit of sleep and then tore into the bearings and housing.
It looks like the noise was DEFINITELY coming from the passenger side bearing. Notice the pitting and galling.
And the "shims" I thought I was seeing turned out to be an optical delusion. Its just the edges of the race.
Its worrisome that I had these bearings installed less than 7 months ago when I was in Maine. I spoke with my mechanic here at Outwesty (Awesome shop and solid guy who installed my new bearings here in Lake Tahoe) and he said he's witnessing the same short life span with bearings on his and his customer's vans. Poor quality/cheap materials?
At any rate, these current bearings are the "Italian" ones I picked up from Burley. Here's hoping they last a bit longer!
_________________ 87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans
Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? {SOLVED} |
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Since the inner race is spinning it is surprising that the damage doesn't show all the way around the race. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6833 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Is this Syncro Front Hub shot? {SOLVED} |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Since the inner race is spinning it is surprising that the damage doesn't show all the way around the race. |
That is intersting.
My question: is this damage on the top side, bottom road side, front or rear of the bearing?
Front or rear should not be a problem, but windering what your tire looks like as far as tread wear goes. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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