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metropoj Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 1343
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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Good day everyone. I wanted to share the following pics of a mechanically destroyed tranny I picked up on the cheap for its Transaxle case.
**Warning: contains graphic pictures of carnage **
The Ring and Pinion badly damaged, the pinion obliterated, the picture doesn't do it justice ..
The pan was a huge mix of silver goo, my assumption was the grinding up metal mixing with the oil until it just sort of hardened up. There were big slivers of the pinion within that oil and around the magnet.
The Pinion shaft bearings were so washed with the silver slurry that it ground the Pinion bearing race to a brilliant dull finish.
I also opened up the Transmission side of things .. It was a little concerning ...
Pan bottom ...
Filter
The filter is peculiar. There were a few larger pieces of metal in there that almost looked like the same metal as i saw on the transaxle side of things. The 2 shaft seals that help separate Transaxle oil form Tranny didn't look like they were completely destroyed.
Would you think that shrapnel could pass into the tranny pan and get filtered by the screen or most likely, there is additional damage in the transmission part unrelated to the Transaxle shrapnel...
This transmission had someone in there before, I see some screws have slight damage from being apart before. Not necessarily a bad thing but time will tell.
Analysis of what you think may have happened would be of interest ...
I am also thinking to tear this transmission down further as a learning tool and will share more once I get to that point. _________________ John.
86 TiiCo powered Westy. |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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I'm guessing that transaxle was coupled to a (insert name here) engine swap?
J |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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jberger wrote: |
I'm guessing that transaxle was coupled to a (insert name here) engine swap?
J |
seeing how the diff looks like it's full of ATF i'd say intermix took it out _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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metropoj Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 1343
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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Quote: |
seeing how the diff looks like it's full of ATF i'd say intermix took it out |
Damn, no, in this case, the diff cover was already off when the auto tranny pan was still dripping fluids into the diff section.
So, I didn't see any 'fluid in the transaxle, just the goo of silver. _________________ John.
86 TiiCo powered Westy. |
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 503 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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I’d say either misadjustment of the R&P or using incorrect gear oil and/or neglecting change intervals. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4717 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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post mortem? ran low on gear lube.... _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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What is the R+P ratio? |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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There area a total of four seals that separate the ATF and the gear oil. You have the two shaft seals, the governor shaft seal, and the inner pinion seal. |
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metropoj Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 1343
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
What is the R+P ratio? |
Oh, hmm, are they marked perhaps on the gear face somewhere readable ? It came as 'broken' from the VW shop . _________________ John.
86 TiiCo powered Westy. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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metropoj wrote: |
?Waldo? wrote: |
What is the R+P ratio? |
Oh, hmm, are they marked perhaps on the gear face somewhere readable ? It came as 'broken' from the VW shop . |
You can count the teeth on the gears and do a little division. |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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Yup, count the teeth on the ring = R, count the teeth on the pinion = P. R/P=?. |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7404 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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A reasonable alternative to stating the ratio is simply stating the ring:pinion teeth count. Ratios on the left, ring:pinion counts on the right (manual transmissions). Each provide helpful information for different points of consideration.
- 5.50 = 6:33
- 5.43 = 7:38
- 4.86 = 7:34
- 4.83 = 6:29
What is the thinking in tracking down the ratio for the R&P in this case? Is one ratio such as the 3.27 more likely to grenade than a 4.09? Thanks. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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Those are the ratios for the manual trans, not automatic. The manuals also have the 4.57, and aftermarket 4.14.
The ratios that are currently available for the automatic include:
4.45, 4.09 (stock), 3.73 (stock with some euro models), 3.27, and 3.08. I do not know the relative tooth counts for each. |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7404 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
Those are the ratios for the manual trans, not automatic. The manuals also have the 4.57, and aftermarket 4.14.
The ratios that are currently available for the automatic include:
4.45, 4.09 (stock), 3.73 (stock with some euro models), 3.27, and 3.08. I do not know the relative tooth counts for each. |
Yes, those ratios applying to the manual trans is exactly what I said when I posted them.
My question was:
Quote: |
What is the thinking in tracking down the ratio for the R&P in this case? Is one ratio such as the 3.27 more likely to grenade than a 4.09? Thanks. |
_________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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I have heard of some of the 3.27 R+P's having issues. I saw a pic of one that looked much the same. It might even be the same one.
If it is the 3.27 it might or might not mean anything but I'd like to file it as a data point.
If metropoj's R+P is a stock 4.09 it would be useful information to me. |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7404 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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Thank you, Waldo. I was curious as to why you asked about the R&P ratio and if the "super flier" 3.27 R&P was a point of interest for you.
The Vanagon auto transmission may be a good option to consider as manual transmissions break down and owners (like me) continue to hear praise for their autos form other owners. If we don't convert to electric before the next transmission rebuild.
I'm interested to hear what ratio this R&P is. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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natejohn Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2020 Posts: 57 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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Is it possible that the thing was towed for a super long distance? _________________ 1990 Vanagon Westfalia |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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No one should ever tow a Vanagon with an automatic transmission with rear wheels on the ground without disconnecting the driveshafts, however, I do not believe that will ruin the R+P. |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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I thought it might be fun to post a pic of a stock 4.09 R&P and an aftermarket 3.08 version side by side.
Stock is on the left _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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metropoj Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 1343
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
Yup, count the teeth on the ring = R, count the teeth on the pinion = P. R/P=?. |
Ahhh Math, my old Nemesis It is a stock 4.09 ratio (45/11).
Got all the guts pulled from the tranny last night that are junk. It was good to have something to dismantle that I can check out before I disassemble the good guts from the tranny with the bad case.
I'll probably post pics about bearings etc. soon on my 'good guts' regarding wear once I see them. If I'm in this far, why not just do them .... We have a press at work I can probably use.
I have some seals etc. to order up soon. I will leave the Transmission part and TC to an expert for the good one, my other scrapped tranny I will poke around with.
... There is a 924 auto not far from me here at the wreckers, may try and pull that out for parts. _________________ John.
86 TiiCo powered Westy. |
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