| Author |
Message |
liquidrush
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2018
Posts: 588
Location: MO
|
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
 |
|
| I replaced the entire braking system when I rebuilt the buggy, 4 new drums, all new shoes, 22mm master cyl, steel and rubber lines, wheel cyls, all of it and the stopping power just never really impressed me. Since I got it all licensed up I've been driving on the street more and as mentioned, the stopping power just doesn't seem that great. I've adjusted them all up as much as I can, I have a great pedal but it really seems to take some effort and it will not lock up any of the wheels. I decided to go to disc so we'll see if this does the trick. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
c54fun
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2006
Posts: 171
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| Be sure to read up on "brake bedding" if your wanting the most out of your brakes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kangaboy
Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2010
Posts: 1063
Location: St. Louis, Mo
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
You should be able to lock up the front wheels with a proper set of drums. I'm not questioning your ability to install and tune a new brake system, but more so that even brand new parts could be DOA and not perform as intended...and more specifically, "new" master cylinders.
Don't be surprised if you get the same results with the new disc brake conversion.
_________________
-74 Standard - "CaliBug" 2084T, MS3X w/FI and Crank Fire
-76 Westy - "Gandalf"
-18 GTI SE
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
Weigh all the parts and you will probably find the drum brakes lighter then disks.
eQ
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
weasel_ugs
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2012
Posts: 721
Location: Prescott Valley,Az.
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| Something to keep in mind, it takes longer to stop with your brakes locked than with proper pedal pressure and your wheels still spinning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
How tall are your tires? The taller the tires the less stopping power you will have.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| weasel_ugs wrote: |
| Something to keep in mind, it takes longer to stop with your brakes locked than with proper pedal pressure and your wheels still spinning. |
Only on dry flat pavement.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PhillipM
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2010
Posts: 595
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:21 am Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| On almost anything, if you have the right tyres on. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| Aerindel wrote: |
| weasel_ugs wrote: |
| Something to keep in mind, it takes longer to stop with your brakes locked than with proper pedal pressure and your wheels still spinning. |
Only on dry flat pavement. |
Why does physics only apply on flat pavement?
Answer; It doesn’t.
Static friction is ALWAYS higher than kinetic friction. You can not transfer as much force when your tires are skidding as you can when they are rolling. This goes for both deceleration and acceleration.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:14 am Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
Those of us from the frozen north learn that quickly on snow and ice! Leave the lights with the tires boiling and you will be the last one to the coffee shop every time. Jam the brakes on for a red light and you will still be sliding a block later!
Nothing like winter to teach the principles of friction!
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
liquidrush
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2018
Posts: 588
Location: MO
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| I didn't consider tire size, I replaced them with what was on there when I bought the roller. 235/75 15s rear and 225/75 15s front. Heck I even drove it for a year with rear brakes only. Adding the front drums was a noticeable improvement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| Aerindel wrote: |
| weasel_ugs wrote: |
| Something to keep in mind, it takes longer to stop with your brakes locked than with proper pedal pressure and your wheels still spinning. |
Only on dry flat pavement. |
Why does physics only apply on flat pavement?
Answer; It doesn’t.
Static friction is ALWAYS higher than kinetic friction. You can not transfer as much force when your tires are skidding as you can when they are rolling. This goes for both deceleration and acceleration. |
Sorry, but this is patently false. Locked brakes are far more effective in any kind of loose or irregular surface. ABS can double stopping distance, and increased fatalities when it became common. This hasn't even be up for debate for a long time, I'm surprised to see this myth resurfacing here.
The why of this is very simple. Traction of a tire is more than just friction, (adhesion) its also deformation. This is why we don't just use solid rubber tires. A tire can get FAR better traction by deforming to the shape of a rough surface than it can by simple friction, off road, or on snow or ice (with studs or chains), deformation is the primary mechanism of traction.
On flat, dry pavement, there is nothing to deform to so you are left with just adhesion. Locked tires will still stop you better, its just that the difference is very small compared to keeping them turning and maintaining a steering ability.
In all other situations, a locked tire will 'plow' into the surface and stop much faster than a tire with ABS or with 'feathered' brakes that don't lock up.
The tests are conclusive, and dramatic. As are the sharp increase in fatalities from cars running off road when ABS brakes where first mandated. ABS may have some advantages, but stopping faster was never one of them.
The only benefit of ABS is that you maintain steering ability (within the limits of traction) at the expense of braking. You can't cheat the laws of physics. You have a traction 'budget' for each tire, that you have to work within no matter what. There is no magic way around that.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
liquidrush
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2018
Posts: 588
Location: MO
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:16 am Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| Well I got them installed and bled out, I can't believe how much better it stops with so little braking effort by myself, probably a quarter of foot pressure compared to what it took before. I'm very pleased with this upgrade. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PhillipM
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2010
Posts: 595
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| Aerindel wrote: |
The tests are conclusive, and dramatic. As are the sharp increase in fatalities from cars running off road when ABS brakes where first mandated. ABS may have some advantages, but stopping faster was never one of them.
The only benefit of ABS is that you maintain steering ability (within the limits of traction) at the expense of braking. You can't cheat the laws of physics. You have a traction 'budget' for each tire, that you have to work within no matter what. There is no magic way around that. |
Every single rally and Dakar car disagrees with you.
You *might* stop faster on loose snow and sand, but only if your tyres struggle to clear enough of it to start with. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| liquidrush wrote: |
| Well I got them installed and bled out, I can't believe how much better it stops with so little braking effort by myself, probably a quarter of foot pressure compared to what it took before. I'm very pleased with this upgrade. |
Excellent!
Something I missed here on the first read was the 22mm master cylinder. Why? The larger the master cylinder the more effort it takes to stop. This is a case of bigger is not necessarily better. Combined with the taller tires it makes sense that you were disappointed.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| PhillipM wrote: |
Every single rally and Dakar car disagrees with you.
You *might* stop faster on loose snow and sand, but only if your tyres struggle to clear enough of it to start with. |
It wouldn't be me they are disagreeing with. Its not like this is just my opinion, its demonstrable science, established physics, I'm just the messenger. Much smarter people than me figure this stuff out.
My opinion however is that they probably would not argue with this at all as I don't think the shortest possible stopping distance matters very much in racing compared to maintaining steering control while braking.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slayer61
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2021
Posts: 1018
Location: CA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:48 am Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| oprn wrote: |
| liquidrush wrote: |
| Well I got them installed and bled out, I can't believe how much better it stops with so little braking effort by myself, probably a quarter of foot pressure compared to what it took before. I'm very pleased with this upgrade. |
Excellent!
Something I missed here on the first read was the 22mm master cylinder. Why? The larger the master cylinder the more effort it takes to stop. This is a case of bigger is not necessarily better. Combined with the taller tires it makes sense that you were disappointed. |
oprn, you could look at it the other way around also. It would apply LESS braking to the brakes, reducing the chance of an inadvertent brake lock-up on a buggy. I like the idea!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:09 am Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
True but it might also mean you have less of a chance to stop before you hit something... if the reduction in braking power is large enough.
How many of you remember the power brakes on the full-sized cars Ford in the mid to late '60s? Man were those things touchy! First time I drove one I nearly had to jack hammer my teeth out of the dash but you get used to it just like you get used to a touchy gas peddle. Not having enough braking power to stop is not a good feeling. Been there, played that game!
If you feel like you have 2 feet on the brake peddle, bending the steering wheel and the brakes are still not locking up - you have a problem...
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnnyvw164
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2020
Posts: 573
Location: South of Raleigh
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:29 am Post subject: Re: I ordered up 4 wheels worth of disc brakes. |
|
|
| I recall reading somewhere that Ford actually designed a lot of front end dive into the cars to make it feel like the brakes were more powerful. Selling the sizzle, not the steak.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
