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vwroamer
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:25 pm Post subject: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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Hey Everyone!
I'm really just over my kadrons. I have had them for a very long time and overall the drivability of them is just not that great. random flat spots, when cruising down the highway at steady throttle it backfires.... And to get jets for them is a process.... I have worked with Jeff at kaddie shack a lot over the years and hes been great to work with, but its coming to the point of having to bring the bus to him, but the ticker is that i live over 10 hours + away from him. I know there will be responses with the idea of just tuning them and adjusting them... But really, i think there might be a better carb setup than this out there today.
I am open to any suggestions you guys have for a carb set up for daily driver, sunday cruiser , weekend warrior camper.
My dad has a pair of dellortos, but they need some work and i really don't have the time to mess with them at this point.
What about webers? what about a 34 pict ? I think i really just want an easy button to press.
68 Westy
1956cc
76 x 90.5
041 heads
110 engle cam
Kadrons-Vacuum signal drilled from kaddie shack, Rebushed throttle bodies.
034 Dist from Aircooled.net |
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mcdragracer
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Joined: December 30, 2007
Posts: 714
Location: Cally
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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Dellorto's, super smooth operation, Weber's will work also but I prefer Dellortos, here's a set I recently finished for a customer.
https://youtu.be/zY4U3OHbwS0 (36 drla's)
Last edited by mcdragracer on Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:40 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76939
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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Live with the Kadrons until you can get the Dellorto's rebuilt.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7217
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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Ahh, well, there is no simple way to say this.
Lets take it from the top and see if we can cover most of it.
1. If it spits and backfires down the road it is clearly not in sync or maybe not even dialed in properly.
That can be due to a crappy linkage (it often is) and/not properly jetted. Even dirty fuel can be a contributor to that.
2. Jets.... No problem. There are several vendors who has them in stock. Kaddieshack, AJ Simms, Aircooled.net to name a few.
3. Better carbs. - Sure. But honestly, if you have so much trouble and always had I´m not sure that dual Dells or Webers is the answer for you either. You MAY however have an easier time finding someone who can work on those carbs. (There is of course the chance that these carbs, or one of them has an issue, but it is very rare. Kads either work or they don´t.)
4. ICT´s. Forget it.If you think the Kads are hard to work with, you will be in for a treat.
Now, part of your issues are almost certainly a syncronizing problem. Then you need to double check your fuel supply and fuel pressure. Kads do not like that much fuel pressure. IIRC 3½ psi is considered tops for service without problems. Get that checked.
The next "problem is your combo. While used about a million times it is - still - not an especially good one looking from a jetting and syncing point of view. We can, to a certain extend work around that, but you need to invest a little time and a little money into it. You also need to stop listening to 25 years old recommendations about how to make Kads run. Half of it does not hold water. It is easy to sit here behind my keyboard and throw out lemons, but if you, or anybody wants an engine like that to run well there are a couple of things that need to be worked on.
First I need to know exactly WHICH 041 heads you have. There are at least 3 versions. If you pop a valve cover there is a cast and part number in there which will tell it if you do not already know. CR if you know.
Second. I need to know which exhaust you have, and heater boxes. Stock or aftermarket.
Third. which carb linkage.
Fourth. What has been done to the carbs? Like different venturies and/or something else? In conjunction with that, which manifolds do you have? Kadron, Empi, Bugpack or perhaps even old steel manifolds.
Fifth. You write that you have an SVDA distributor. How is it timed at idle and at 3000 rpm? Also, points or electronic module? and what fires it up?
Finally a practical question. How do you sync the carbs, by ear or by a vacum / snail gauge? Does both carbs begin to pull at the EXACT same time?
I probably forgot something, but this will do for a Start.
I´ll bet my lunch that i can get your carbs up and running well for significantly less than a new or rebuilt set of carbs will set you back, PROVIDED they do not have an inside error. But we will soon figure that out when we start working with it.
Let me hear ya 
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vwroamer
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Ahh, well, there is no simple way to say this.
Lets take it from the top and see if we can cover most of it.
1. If it spits and backfires down the road it is clearly not in sync or maybe not even dialed in properly.
That can be due to a crappy linkage (it often is) and/not properly jetted. Even dirty fuel can be a contributor to that.
2. Jets.... No problem. There are several vendors who has them in stock. Kaddieshack, AJ Simms, Aircooled.net to name a few.
3. Better carbs. - Sure. But honestly, if you have so much trouble and always had I´m not sure that dual Dells or Webers is the answer for you either. You MAY however have an easier time finding someone who can work on those carbs. (There is of course the chance that these carbs, or one of them has an issue, but it is very rare. Kads either work or they don´t.)
4. ICT´s. Forget it.If you think the Kads are hard to work with, you will be in for a treat.
Now, part of your issues are almost certainly a syncronizing problem. Then you need to double check your fuel supply and fuel pressure. Kads do not like that much fuel pressure. IIRC 3½ psi is considered tops for service without problems. Get that checked.
The next "problem is your combo. While used about a million times it is - still - not an especially good one looking from a jetting and syncing point of view. We can, to a certain extend work around that, but you need to invest a little time and a little money into it. You also need to stop listening to 25 years old recommendations about how to make Kads run. Half of it does not hold water. It is easy to sit here behind my keyboard and throw out lemons, but if you, or anybody wants an engine like that to run well there are a couple of things that need to be worked on.
First I need to know exactly WHICH 041 heads you have. There are at least 3 versions. If you pop a valve cover there is a cast and part number in there which will tell it if you do not already know. CR if you know.
Second. I need to know which exhaust you have, and heater boxes. Stock or aftermarket.
Third. which carb linkage.
Fourth. What has been done to the carbs? Like different venturies and/or something else? In conjunction with that, which manifolds do you have? Kadron, Empi, Bugpack or perhaps even old steel manifolds.
Fifth. You write that you have an SVDA distributor. How is it timed at idle and at 3000 rpm? Also, points or electronic module? and what fires it up?
Finally a practical question. How do you sync the carbs, by ear or by a vacum / snail gauge? Does both carbs begin to pull at the EXACT same time?
I probably forgot something, but this will do for a Start.
I´ll bet my lunch that i can get your carbs up and running well for significantly less than a new or rebuilt set of carbs will set you back, PROVIDED they do not have an inside error. But we will soon figure that out when we start working with it.
Let me hear ya |
Wow, thanks for your descriptive reply. I will try my best to address them one by one.
1. The linkage is the original push pull style. Im sure it could be upgraded.
$100.00 probably well spent. Its on the wish list.
2. Jetting was supplied to me by filling out the form on the kaddieshack
website and he sends me the "proper" jets based on elevation (6,239 ft)
and engine specs but unfortunately, he grinds the numbers off of them so
i couldn't tell you
what the jetting is. I could buy a jet index, but dang those are pretty
spendy. I tried to call aj simms about a dozen times and i get no answer
so i pretty much gave up on that..... but i figure to get proper jetting
would be about 50 dollars w/ shipping. and that is only 1 set.
3. Your answer of "You MAY however have an easier time finding someone
who can work on
those carbs. (There is of course the chance that these carbs, or one of
them has an issue, but it is very rare" this is true, but sending them to anyone now would be six weeks out and at least 150$ to find the issue.
4. Fuel pressure is set to 2 psi with a pressure regulator. Tested that
pressure multiple times in the troubleshooting process.
5. The section of about the "combo".... What do you mean? the carb and motor combo? the motor internal components combo?
6. I will pop the valve covers off and check what heads they are. My engine builder says im running 8.2 compression
7. Exhaust is j pipes with 1 3/8 merged header with single quiet pack exhaust.
8. The carbs were rebuilt by kaddie shack, He jetted it , but like i said before, ground off the numbers so i couldnt tell you the jetting without a index. They have 30mm venturis in them.
9. The manifolds say empi on them.
10. I time this motor by pinching the vacuum hose, and revving past 3000 rpm and adjust timing to about 30-32 degrees
The reason why i point out the prices of these these certain moves is that Aircooled.net recommends a weber ICT. and that set up is only 500 bucks. This is not the first time i have been recommended this carburetor set up either. People around here swear by them and say they are an easy and smooth setup.
Last edited by vwroamer on Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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vwroamer
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| mcdragracer wrote: |
Dellorto's, super smooth operation, Weber's will work also but I prefer Dellortos, here's a set I recently finished for a customer.
https://youtu.be/zY4U3OHbwS0 (36 drla's) |
I'm assuming you rebuild dellortos as a service? |
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vwroamer
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Live with the Kadrons until you can get the Dellorto's rebuilt. |
so you are saying that dellortos are easier and have smoother operation than the kads?
Thanks for your reply Glenn. |
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mcdragracer
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2007
Posts: 714
Location: Cally
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| vwroamer wrote: |
| mcdragracer wrote: |
Dellorto's, super smooth operation, Weber's will work also but I prefer Dellortos, here's a set I recently finished for a customer.
https://youtu.be/zY4U3OHbwS0 (36 drla's) |
I'm assuming you rebuild dellortos as a service? |
That I do but If you have any questions I'm more than happy to answer them for you. |
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craigman
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 2397
Location: redding
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| I have a set of 40 dells I'd love to get done! Awesome carbs! |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7217
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:55 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| vwroamer wrote: |
1. The linkage is the original push pull style. Im sure it could be upgraded.
$100.00 probably well spent. Its on the wish list.
Good idea. The CSP version works quite decent.
2. Jetting was supplied to me by filling out the form on the kaddieshack
website and he sends me the "proper" jets based on elevation (6,239 ft)
and engine specs but unfortunately, he grinds the numbers off of them so
i couldn't tell you
what the jetting is. I could buy a jet index, but dang those are pretty
spendy. I tried to call aj simms about a dozen times and i get no answer
so i pretty much gave up on that..... but i figure to get proper jetting
would be about 50 dollars w/ shipping. and that is only 1 set.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/292039465555?hash=item43fee89a53:g:9oIAAOSw41xXPfI~
https://www.ebay.de/itm/291120648409?hash=item43c82490d9:g:WRcAAOxycD9TREHs
https://www.ebay.de/itm/260936673868?hash=item3cc109aa4c:g:5T4AAOxyhlJRcOzi
Your idle jets sound to be too large so you would wanbt a couple of set of those too. 50, 52, 55 and maybe 57. Hard to say. I´m not sure how much the altitude affects the idle size.
Then you will need one of these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/160661147470?epid=1994268...%3A2334524 There are cheaper models out there, but don´t skimp. MNany of them have a very limited lifespan and are not that accurate. These have never let me down.
3. Your answer of "You MAY however have an easier time finding someone
who can work on
those carbs. (There is of course the chance that these carbs, or one of
them has an issue, but it is very rare" this is true, but sending them to anyone now would be six weeks out and at least 150$ to find the issue.
Alright. We will work from the stand point that the basic carbs are ok.
4. Fuel pressure is set to 2 psi with a pressure regulator. Tested that
pressure multiple times in the troubleshooting process.
Good
5. The section of about the "combo".... What do you mean? the carb and motor combo? the motor internal components combo?
6. I will pop the valve covers off and check what heads they are. My engine builder says im running 8.2 compression
7. Exhaust is j pipes with 1 3/8 merged header with single quiet pack exhaust.
5,6&7. I´m thinking the cam/carb, and to a certain extend the muffler combo. In a manner of expression, these "slap together" engines by more or less experienced people almost always creats issues down the road. It is not as easy as people think to make a good engine (I have been there myself, so I know)
Starting with the last first. The exhaust is very restrictive foir the engines. The regular sgl Q muffler begins to restrict already at about 85 hp. and with a lot of displacement it doesnt get better. With a better muffler the small 1 3/8 can handle 110-115 hp if you push it. But, the header size should be determined by the exhaust valve, so no final verdict on that until we know the cylinder head model.
On the contrary to what many think, Kads, ICT´s etc loooove compresion.
a dual sgl barrel carbed engine loooove mild or split duration cams. If a, shall we say average experienced engine builder recommends a certain cam from the "old" catalog you will 9 out of 10 times be better off going against the advise and go ½ to 1 group DOWN in cam duration. That will give you better overall behaviure, about the same power, but less bragging rights. With the CR. 8,2 is on the very minimum of what the cam will work decent with. Especially when the engine lives most of its life at altitude. We may have to work a little with that.
8. The carbs were rebuilt by kaddie shack, He jetted it , but like i said before, ground off the numbers so i couldnt tell you the jetting without a index. They have 30mm venturis in them.
Yeah, I think it is an amputated attempt to keep business secrets to himself, but IMHO it bites him in the rear because you only do that once.
30 mm venturies are good for the engine size.
9. The manifolds say empi on them.
OK. Then we have a base line. When you get to the point of fixing the things that need fixing you should pull the manifolds and look at the intake gasket. Check how well it matches the intake. Pull the gasket and put it on the manifold. Check that the manifold lines up with the intake ports. They often dont. If you have a 0,100" ledge at one side and 0,100" overhang at the other, its quite normal for those, but it needs to be adressed. you can correct it with JB weld and some emery rolls. It is better that the manifold is a hairswidth smaller than the intake port than a a ledge into the port.
The upper part of the manifolds need to be worked on to. But lets not get into that until we know the type of heads on the engine.
10. I time this motor by pinching the vacuum hose, and revving past 3000 rpm and adjust timing to about 30-32 degrees
Yes, I thought so. Nothing wrong with the proceedure, buyt we need to work on the idle and lower rpm timing.
The reason why i point out the prices of these these certain moves is that Aircooled.net recommends a weber ICT. and that set up is only 500 bucks. This is not the first time i have been recommended this carburetor set up either. People around here swear by them and say they are an easy and smooth setup.
You need to remember one thing that nobody seem to have told you. Buying a set of carbs is one thing. Tuning them on "your" engine is another. A proper tune can easily amount to the same as buying the carbs.
And no, ICT´s are NOT better than Kads. They are cheaper, and there is just as much jetting and tuning with those as with Kads if not more. Just about all ICT´s are delivered with wrong jets, E tubes and even float heights for an ACVW.
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I think that was it for round two. Now the important thing tyo know is the type of heads before we can go further.
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:45 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| vwroamer wrote: |
Hey Everyone!
I'm really just over my kadrons. I have had them for a very long time and overall the drivability of them is just not that great. random flat spots, when cruising down the highway at steady throttle it backfires.... And to get jets for them is a process.... I have worked with Jeff at kaddie shack a lot over the years and hes been great to work with, but its coming to the point of having to bring the bus to him, but the ticker is that i live over 10 hours + away from him. I know there will be responses with the idea of just tuning them and adjusting them... But really, i think there might be a better carb setup than this out there today.
I am open to any suggestions you guys have for a carb set up for daily driver, sunday cruiser , weekend warrior camper.
My dad has a pair of dellortos, but they need some work and i really don't have the time to mess with them at this point.
What about webers? what about a 34 pict ? I think i really just want an easy button to press.
68 Westy
1956cc
76 x 90.5
041 heads
110 engle cam
Kadrons-Vacuum signal drilled from kaddie shack, Rebushed throttle bodies.
034 Dist from Aircooled.net |
.......................................................................................................alstrup has good info .heres my two cents . over the years i i have found out that kadrons like a distributor that has no vacuum . i have found out that a distributor set up with 10 to 12 degs. int. all in by 32degs total works best . with my kadrons . all so i have seen ing. coils fail and act the same way your motor is acting .i have seen guys hook up the coil wires .back words . and have the motor run like crap. thats all i am going to say alstrup has good info . but you must do one thing at a time to find out why your carbs are not working with your motor .its hard to try to fix a motor by talking about it on a forum . one has to see the motor in person and hear it and drive it. to fix it . good luck spencerfvee |
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Alstrup
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:51 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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I kinda disagree on the 009 thing, but we all work out of slightly different experiences.
Wrt the hands on thing I totally agree. This is also why I ask so many questions sort of to get a baseline.
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evanfrucht
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:23 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
1. The linkage is the original push pull style. Im sure it could be upgraded.
$100.00 probably well spent. Its on the wish list.
Good idea. The CSP version works quite decent.
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So, now you like the CSP push/pull style?  
Before you've mentioned it was not up to par, never able to get in perfect sync, etc.. but now you actually reccomend it, what happened?
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esde
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:42 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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After driving a well tuned set of Dells you will never go back to Kadrons. I tried and kept on thinking something was wrong with the engine. Nope, thats just the sacrifice of running dual single barrels.
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Alstrup
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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Evan. I am still not especially fond of it. But with Kads its an upgrade over the stock Kadron linkage. Also, Kadrons are not quite as sensetive as dual IDF or Dells. The best Kadron linkage I have found is the Berg style, but that´s a whole other price level.
Esde, you can very well be correct. That was part of the reason to my combo comment earlier. But if you keep the combo´s - shall we call them reasonable, Kadrons can run as smooth as a set of Dellorto´s, and you can still make good power with them.
I know this is not an engine to build for the local garage mechanic, but to put things in perspective, My record is 141 hp @ 5700 and 210 Nm torque on a 2165 through 42 x 35 mm cylinderheads modified 40 mm Kadrons on Welded manifolds. AND that is using only a Web 218/119 on 110Lc, advanced 2 degrees. It hauls butt from idle, has no flat spots. I will admit that it runs a locked Mallory distributor with a MSD6AL2 Programmable CDI with map sensor. It does not run perfect smooth idle as you could make with a set of dual IDF´s etc. but it runs so smooth that many who do not know the car do not realize that it is Kadron fed until the hood is opened. The programmable ignition helps a good deal in getting the rpm band smooth and the idle steady. Not everybody´s cuppa tea, I know, but its
It takes some work I admit, and thats where people say screw it and go duals. But if you can´t handle adjusting Kadrons you wohnt be able to handle dual carbs either. Then youre still in the same boat.
And now back to the regular scheduled show 
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evanfrucht
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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Alstrup, regarding the linkage, I figured as much but just wanted to make sure 
...For whatever it's worth (I don't have much to compare to) but the CSP works well for me and the build quality is nice and robust. In general, a new linkage should improve driveability even a little, and especially if your old linkage is worn out or has slop. It's a step in the right direction, however you also could simply have your linkage currently out of sync. You might consider getting a "snail" tool and trying to determine where your carb sync stands currently, and then maybe adjusting it. There are some decent YouTube videos out there which will give you the basic idea.
- How old is this engine and how many miles gets put on it how often?
- Check valve adjustment
- Did it ever run right? Or has the issue gradually developed or did it just kinda start running worse one day?
- When you say random flat spots and backfiring down the highway it sounds like it could be as simple as debris in the float bowl or even a vaccum leak.
| Alstrup wrote: |
5. The section of about the "combo".... What do you mean? the carb and motor combo? the motor internal components combo?
6. I will pop the valve covers off and check what heads they are. My engine builder says im running 8.2 compression
7. Exhaust is j pipes with 1 3/8 merged header with single quiet pack exhaust.
5,6&7. I´m thinking the cam/carb, and to a certain extend the muffler combo. In a manner of expression, these "slap together" engines by more or less experienced people almost always creats issues down the road. It is not as easy as people think to make a good engine (I have been there myself, so I know)
Starting with the last first. The exhaust is very restrictive foir the engines. The regular sgl Q muffler begins to restrict already at about 85 hp. and with a lot of displacement it doesnt get better. With a better muffler the small 1 3/8 can handle 110-115 hp if you push it. But, the header size should be determined by the exhaust valve, so no final verdict on that until we know the cylinder head model.
On the contrary to what many think, Kads, ICT´s etc loooove compresion.
a dual sgl barrel carbed engine loooove mild or split duration cams. If a, shall we say average experienced engine builder recommends a certain cam from the "old" catalog you will 9 out of 10 times be better off going against the advise and go ½ to 1 group DOWN in cam duration. That will give you better overall behaviure, about the same power, but less bragging rights. With the CR. 8,2 is on the very minimum of what the cam will work decent with. Especially when the engine lives most of its life at altitude. We may have to work a little with that.
...30 mm venturies are good for the engine size.
... pull the manifolds and look at the intake gasket... Check that the manifold lines up with the intake ports. It is better that the manifold is a hairswidth smaller than the intake port than a a ledge into the port....
10.Nothing wrong with the proceedure, buyt we need to work on the idle and lower rpm timing.
...Now the important thing to know is the type of heads before we can go further. |
If the carbs are clean and the linkage is adjusted properly, then I would listen very carefully to Alstrup. He is right, lots of engine are just kinda thrown together by shops or people who just don't drive enough or somehow don't care or are simply incompetent one way or another. I had the same initial thought, maybe it's just a poor combo and/or out of tune... except I don't have enough experience to really give you the details and point you in the best direction... he does.
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Janne71
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2015
Posts: 127
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
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What size of balance tube does it have?
Try 28 mm Venturi to get the speed of gas in throat to increases
I’ll have too large Venturi and have the same problem and too small main on the 1776 engine. I ended up with 138 main and 50 idle. Smooth crushing and crispy wot
Just a little hesitation from idle to main but it runs very smoothly on crushing speed without vibrations |
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