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Dummy Learns Transaxle
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Since I'm diving in for the first time...

A first-timer's perspective might help others who decide to take this on.
With pictures. We like pictures.


First of all, big thanks to to Transaxle Tim and his fabulous book; a must for the newb IMHO.
https://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-tran...pageSize=4
Here's his thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Also all the great posts by the transaxle experts here, you know who you are.
Your contributions are very much appreciated,
And allowed me to get going right away.


First off, I've been gearing up ( Embarassed ) to do this for a long time.
Any time i could get a transaxle for cheap i did so.
Pick N' Pull, Craigslist, swaps, I now have six of them.
Since my car is IRS i tried to get those. But since swingaxles are good for parts,
And i got a couple for free Dancing
They were a good place to start.
Also, since both had spent time outside with the axles off, it didn't pain me to toss parts and make room.

First step in allowing any transaxle anywhere near the shop was a good cleaning by the 'stick n' spoon' method.
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That led to the numbers being looked up and written down.
In addition, a coupe of them got stabbed and driven so i got to see what was wrong before going in.
A good way to learn, right?
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First two victims were an old '67 swing that drove well in my Fastback years ago,
And another a freshly-rebuilt swing i got from a guy for free (more on this later).
Popped them apart easily using a couple blocks of wood and a pry-bar.
Because the axles were off for a long time and I'll never use a swingaxle,
Might use these to make tools or give them away if anyone wants..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dealing with gear oil is always fun.
Since i was going to take things straight apart and it was a nice day,
Took the 1st trans's gear stack and doused it with Gunk in the grass; followed by the water hose and some compressed air.
Obviously, if it had to stay together afterwards that would cause rust issues later.
Parts at bottom are 1st trans guts all clean and ready for inspection.
Top shelf has the 2nd one ready for cleaning and disassembly.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



We'll stop this post here before it goes poof!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Shoulda taken pics while prying apart cases and pressing out shafts..
Got too excited and forgot to take pics! Very Happy

We'll do this on the next one, and because I'm building a new (wooden Embarassed ) press fixture as well.

There's this other thread where i got the wrong tool long ago.
Thought it was a pinion nut tool,
But now I'm not sure what exactly it is.. Confused
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Whatever you do, don't buy that tool.. It's not for pinion nuts.

Thread --> https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758691


Since that time, I got me a proper tool from Transaxle Tim! Dancing Dancing Applause
He also threw in a tool to press washers and an old 3rd gear hub to make a holder tool out of. Cool
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's where you go to get the goods -->
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2485565



More to come...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

A couple of years ago I'm at the Bug O Rama..
It's Sunday afternoon and i spent all of my money..
Lo and behold there's a VW294a trans jig and a bunch of the fitting rings(!) Shocked

Since these are like $1200 on the Snap-On truck i wasn't thinking it possible,
But the guy is like "How much you got?"
I had $40.. And POW! Winner!!!
Dancing

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Now I'm trying to figure out what i got and how to use it..
Weird that there's not studs but bolts, and they're 'Murrican SAE thread.. Confused
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Consulting scripture shows studs, as well as these spacer thingies under the gear carrier..?
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Measuring depth shows the same number - so that the stack should go right in with no spacers tight to the gear carrier.
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But how to put in this centering ring??
This is the only ring (of five included) that fits this 4-bolt pinion.
If i put it in from the pinion head side it doesn't reach deep enough to do any good.
Only way to center the pinion bearing is to put it on the stack side like so:
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Then, it spaces out the gear carrier away from the tool stand thingies..
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Plus, the bolts end up too long and hit the gear..
(Not that i couldn't shorten bolts, but it makes me think something is wrong?)
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So here i stacked up some washers within a few thou of ideal and I'm shifting gears and making vroom noises..
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But that don't make it right...

What am i missing here?
How is this jig supposed to work?
Am i missing a different mounting ring centering dealie?


Please help. Pray
Much thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Your pins are wrong, measure the depth of the main case, thats how long they need to be. Easy to make on a lathe. My 4 bolt pins are 4.380"
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Your pins are wrong, measure the depth of the main case, thats how long they need to be. Easy to make on a lathe. My 4 bolt pins are 4.380"


Thanks for taking the time, Scott.
Glad to see you posting here.

Measured the pins and they match yours..
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I'm thinking i have this centering ring in the wrong place,
That, or i'm missing a correct one?
Seems like this shouldn't be here..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Can't find any other way to locate the pinion in the center of the hole in the jig.
At least using one the five different rings i have..

Maybe you just don't run a centering ring and it aligns well enough without?

Thanks again.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Two More Victims!! Twisted Evil
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Couldn't wait to get home from work yesterday and rip apart some transaxles..!

We'll call these two the 'mystery' trans and the 'dirt' trans.
Mystery one i have no idea where it came from or how it got here. - Totally forgot! Shocked
Dirt one i got on Craigslist and obviously was run on dirt roads.
It had dirt/oil caked on inches thick in places.
Neither one of them i have run or know anything about.
These two hold the most promise for getting a working IRS trans together.
(illustrates my level of functioning here. Razz )


In an effort to make this thread useful I'll show what i do/did.

Ripping off nose-cone and side-cover(s) is brainless so we'll skip that.

Once in the 'mystery' trans, the pinion nut was just spinning and spinning.
Interference/press fit of the pinion bearing and case bore was gone away,
So the bearing just spun with the nut when trying to loosen.
First i tried a BFH and chisel, a sharpened pick to un-stake the nut..
Finally an angle-grinder came out and hackage ensued until the nut could be chiseled off.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

So much for trying out my new pinion nut tool! Razz


On the 'dirt' trans the tool actually worked! Very Happy
(Will be using a socket on this instead of a crescent wrench in the future - duh).
Also considering how a piece of angle-iron across the cover opening might reinforce holding the socket down tight when install/torqueing comes along later..
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Tip - shift into reverse before popping the cluster out of the case,
Keeps reverse from getting lost in the grass..
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I always store these bellhousing-down on a couple of 2x4s so the input shaft doesn't get hurt by supporting the weight of the trans.
Seems pretty handy/stable for disassembly as well.
After the mainshaft is out, the bellhousing can go flat on the bench (cart),
And the two 2x4s, along with another 2x4, can be stacked in there to lever the trans apart with a pry-bar or two:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Got both clusters out and on the bench,
And both cases covers and cones got Gunked and hosed down in the grass.
Smells like victory!
Not a bad Tuesday evening at all.. Cool


Something that tripped me up taking apart the two earlier trannies was this bolt that holds a pinion shaft bearing in the gear carrier.
It's not mentioned in Tim's book, so as i was pressing, the shaft wouldn't go.
I was lucky enough to stop and think and check and find it.
FYI. ProTip.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Anyways, the 'mystery' trans has an AT code, made from 3/72, which means it should have a 3.88 ring n' pinion, but it's an early one so the case is dual side-cover (DSC)..
The 'dirt' trans is an AH, 8/68 to 8/72 years, has the single side cover - SSC -, but supposedly a 4.12 r&p.

Luckily for me, the 3.88 looks good at a first glance,
And the SSC case seems to have a tight pinion bearing bore,
So it seems like i can build a 3.88 SSC 'later AT' trans.
We'll have to count main-shaft teeth in the hopes it's a 3.78 1st.
IIRC, these late dual-cover/early SSC have some odd parts combos, right..?


So, while it might have been best for a newbie to have a whole assembled/matched diff and case to leave well enough alone,
What's the fun in that?
This is to learn, so i might just go ahead and setup a diff from scratch.
Maybe with some new diff bearings and all as well?

Think

Once i get all four clusters clean and apart,
Hopefully you guys can help me inspect to find a good combo of parts to run.
Thinking ahead on finding some wide roller bearings and maybe earlier 1.32 3rd coarse 4th gears etc..

Having good fun with this so far.
Can't wait to get back on it! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

I have multiple jigs, my universal one( like yours) I only use for late bearing cases, I have dedicated jigs for 4 bolt. The universal kit should hav 2 different length pin sets. Use the demension plus the thickness of the centering ring to make the missing pins.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Dude I just found Tim's book and thread this morning… I was punching the PayPal through when I found this thread. Cool

Took my first 091 apart yesterday and fell in love. My credit card company is going to benefit the most, I can feel it.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Future options on the big nut removal:
Some put the entire thing in the press and push down on the pinion shaft to try and keep the pinion bearing from rotating so the nut can be removed.

I think cutting it off is a faster and easier method with the T1 cases. You can keep that empty pinion bearing housing as a tool to use when pressing off the bearing. On the 3.88's I like to put an old housing only under the pinion bearing I want to press off, you can get the housing and upper bearing easily pushed back enough to put a bearing splitter under the lower bearing later.

I have the universal plate as well, but not the adaptors for getting the 4 bolt pinion bearing to work on it. I do like Scott and just have another jig for the 4 bolt boxes, I lucked into one cheap and just go that method for it all.

It will definitely get easier the more and more you do, glad to see you doing a good thread with it all.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

airschooled wrote:
Dude I just found Tim's book and thread this morning… I was punching the PayPal through when I found this thread. Cool

Took my first 091 apart yesterday and fell in love. My credit card company is going to benefit the most, I can feel it.

Robbie


Robbie!
You're a brave man going straight into the 091.
I have one i need to go through in my bus, that was always handled by "pros"..
It has a Weddle mainshaft and a bunch of other stuff, so i decided to learn on the type 1 trans.
Imma little skeert cause it's so precious.
Since it shifts balky I'm expecting to find a plastic ball, cracked relay, coated syncros with GL5, etc..

Hope you do a build thread.

And let me know if you ever see an 091 core for sale you aren't buying..
Shit, those are like gold! Been looking for years.
Hard to spend $1000 on an unknown core! Shocked

Wait!
Aren't you supposed to be running a 002?
Can't turn around without tripping over one of those..
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Casting Timmy wrote:
Future options on the big nut removal:
Some put the entire thing in the press and push down on the pinion shaft to try and keep the pinion bearing from rotating so the nut can be removed.

I think cutting it off is a faster and easier method with the T1 cases. You can keep that empty pinion bearing housing as a tool to use when pressing off the bearing. On the 3.88's I like to put an old housing only under the pinion bearing I want to press off, you can get the housing and upper bearing easily pushed back enough to put a bearing splitter under the lower bearing later.

I have the universal plate as well, but not the adaptors for getting the 4 bolt pinion bearing to work on it. I do like Scott and just have another jig for the 4 bolt boxes, I lucked into one cheap and just go that method for it all.

It will definitely get easier the more and more you do, glad to see you doing a good thread with it all.


Glad to see you here, just like Scott.
Really really appreciate you guys taking the time to share so much.
It really is a lot of work in the end.

Your build thread, with all of the links, it's priceless.
That transaxle thread on the STF - what a goldmine..

I never woulda been anywhere near the inside of these things without having you guys share.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Other Rebuild Reply with quote

OK.. Backing back up..

A couple of years ago a very kind gentleman Jim approached me.
He is a wealthy and successful Porsche type who has a couple of nice cars - a vert and a Ghia.
They are restored and beautiful.
He needed a swing trans for one of them and ordered a rebuilt unit from one of the "Big LA places".
When it went in, it immediately had some kind of problem - couldn't shift or some such IIRC..
They offered to warranty it, but he didn't want to deal with pulling and crating and shipping and waiting all of that so he just got a better one from someone else.

So he gave it to be for free! Dancing

This makes for a super opportunity to not only do some forensics, but to also see what a normal rebuild place might do in order to turn around a stock rebuild..
It's been mentioned in Tim's thread a couple times - what exactly those big places do in order to sell a stock rebuild at those prices?

We can often identify by the black paint and nylock nuts.
Case on the right..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



They surfaced the inside of the nose cone - just enough to clean it up,
But a slight few bearing marks showing thru.
If it has a new busing installed might just use this for my build here.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Put this in the jig first to try and diagnose.
Was expecting a slipped fork or bad adjustment,
But i think we found the smoking gun right off the bat;
Main-shaft snap ring not seated..
Anyone know if that would be a show-stopper?
Would this make the trans obviously bad right away, or should i keep looking for something else?
Somehow, it seems like it mighta run this way for a while? Think Think
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That opens up a discussion on how to best make sure this doesn't happen.
Always hated how VW uses those dumb split snap rings - they open up.
Timing gears on the crank, CVs, they always end up bent and spread. Evil or Very Mad
Do you guys always buy new?
Is it really OK to just bend them back tight again?

How about your tool to install?
I somehow envision turning a piece of pipe or an old socket with just the right ID bevel to seat these home against the bevel washer in the press.
If it tripped up the pros it'll certainly bite me..


Also, there's no markings on the main-shaft bearing - and it's shiny new.
China?

See also the Bruce Plate substitute - bolt and thick washer to hold the bearing race.
Kudos to them for that.


Also found the 'break teeth off' trick for syncro rings;
Is that a legit move if you're trying to build a nice trans to handle some power?
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Was really stoked to find what looked like a brand-new reverse gears,
until i remembered they were early caged-style and not paddle.
There's no way to use earlier reverse gears in a later case, right?
My IRS trans have mangled reverse (not surprisingly).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Lastly,
The diff on the right came from this trans.
Like all of the parts in there they were cleaned really really well.
Guessing they were glass-bead blasted?
Have some reasonably fresh impact beads in my cabinet.
OK to glass bead gears and such (not rollers or syncros of course)?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Built this turner handle last night out of an old clutch hub and some scrap. Cool
Know that even modern cars like Golfs and Jettas use the same spline.
If they're stick of course.. "What's a 'stick' Dad?" Laughing
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Thanks to you guys' input,
I'll go ahead and confidently retire form doing 4-bolt transaxles now. Cool


Lastly,
If this bearing bore was loose it's pretty much scrap-time for this case, right?
It's not like an 091 where they sleeve pinon bores on these,
Especially a double-side-cover case..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I need to start getting stuff in the trash that goes in the trash,
And 'keeper' stuff cleaned up and put away.

Mom's starting to complain about the smell.. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Definitely not worth trying to save. With that case, I'd be quick to Chop it up and make a shift fork setting jig out of it. It is very cool that you have an OG VW jig tool but it would be cool to make another one out of that case to compare.

I have used both now building 091s, and honestly I like the chopped up purple case Fastone on here sold me.

Or, you could do science stuff for us and use it as a foundation for the "terrible core parts sweep the floor" trans build and see if you could make it quiet and shift right. Call it the GEX Super Street Trans. Laughing Green Loctite the pinion bearing in, chisel a used pinion nut down tight on it, cut off the worn engagement dogs on the gears so it doesn't pop out of gear, and go through your synchro stash until you find ones that don't drop all the way down the clutch cone on the gear. Do us up a dirty one Clatter! Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

The 091 builds a little different, but really is about the same as the rest of the transaxles. VW didn't get to far off with it, so some parts from it are backwards compatible in some ways. The 091 idler can be machined a little narrower and used in beetle boxes and 3/5 ribs that have the 3.78 first as the idler will be stronger. You do need to use the 091 synchro and 091 slider to complete it, but it's the same gear cut.

091 have wider gears on 3rd and 4th, but it's the same gear cut as the fine tooth beetle gears on the early 091's. Later in the 091's 3rd got medium sized gear cut with it.

I use a fine tooth splined 4th gear as a tool to hold the 091 shaft still to get the pinion nut on and off.

On cutting off teeth of first and second, you got from sometimes less fat teeth holding it in gear to more skinny teeth holding it in gear. I wouldn't worry about it for strength, the gear teeth seem to break before those little guys do. The teeth for holding it in gear go out and will only fail by hte angle being gone to hold it in gear.

You might save a couple bad cases, sell the bell housings as starter stands.

The mainshaft clip I like to use a socket to get it into place. The rounded inside edges of the socket seem to knock the clip into place. That clip while not idea isn't the smoking gun on it. I've seen transaxles were it looked like someone was MIG welding the forks up to make them wider while still in place on the gears. The gears had MIG splatter on them even!! Then they like to weld the forks to the shift rails as well, not sure why as the bolt works just fine.

To be fair I think building a fork up with material and then machining or dressing it back would be a fair repair, maybe even better if you brazed it up with bronze. MIG welding and having some of the wire sticking out is rediculous method of repair though.

The only new bearings you can get for 113 and 002 are hte chinese bearings, which are good quality now. I think the first time wasn't the best, but it's all worked out now.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

So it's OK to glass-bead these gears and shafts and whatnot?

Want to be sure i don't mess anything up..
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Great thread!

I know you posted earlier about not putting photos of removing the nosecone or side covers but can you add them when you finish the assembly.

I like that Bruce type mainshaft bearing bolt and retainer so it does not wear the nosecone.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

jimmyhoffa wrote:
Or, you could do science stuff for us and use it as a foundation for the "terrible core parts sweep the floor" trans build and see if you could make it quiet and shift right. Call it the GEX Super Street Trans. Laughing


I'm actually pretty much committed to using only parts form the four cores here.
"Four cores and seven years ago.." Laughing

Will need some diff bearings so far, and some gaskets, and a coupla snap rings and shims..
And a pinion nut..

But other than that, because this is my first try, I'm sticking to mostly stock.

Calling it the Pro Bro.. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

I'm in dire need of a type 1 or 3 swingaxle for a core or mainly for a mock-up to lay out my chassis for a formula car. Cant find much usable data on net as of yet. Are you interested in parting with the swing axle ? I don't mind paying the core charges for when i purchase my racing transaxle. (It will still be relatively mild as only going for couple hundred HP ) I just need for measuring + mock up as i am laying out and forming chassis. Thanks.
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RTRHED
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Joined: August 28, 2021
Posts: 7
Location: Florida
RTRHED is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

I'm in dire need of a type 1 or 3 swingaxle for a core or mainly for a mock-up to lay out my chassis for a formula car. Cant find much usable data on net as of yet. Are you interested in parting with the swing axle ? I don't mind paying the core charges for when i purchase my racing transaxle. (It will still be relatively mild as only going for couple hundred HP ) I just need for measuring + mock up as i am laying out and forming chassis. Thanks.
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 5992
Location: Santa Cruz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

RTRHED wrote:
I'm in dire need of a type 1 or 3 swingaxle for a core or mainly for a mock-up to lay out my chassis for a formula car. Cant find much usable data on net as of yet. Are you interested in parting with the swing axle ? I don't mind paying the core charges for when i purchase my racing transaxle. (It will still be relatively mild as only going for couple hundred HP ) I just need for measuring + mock up as i am laying out and forming chassis. Thanks.


I'm clear out in California..

The swing-axle cases both got stripped bare last night.
I might be able to add a gear carrier and nose cone to make a super-light mockup jig for you.

But it'll sure be a PITA and cost plenty to ship clear 'cross country..

Craigslist doesn't have a gang o' junk trannies there?
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