Dummy Learns Transaxle

[Casting Timmy]

Don't sand the side covers, if you sanded the OD of a diff race already it should be easy to figure out the preload a couple ways.

No pinion shaft in place if you have the ring gear on, or no ring gear in place if the pinion shaft is there.
Put .060" worth of shims in place - probably going to have wiggle to it side to side
Put in .070" worth of shims in place - probably going to roll smooth/ consistent
Put in .080" worth of shims - probably a little harder to roll but still feel nice with old bearings (new bearings will probably be clunky turning)
Put in .090" worth of shims - probably going to clunk turn a little.

The biggest thing you will do is affect bearing life in most applications, which considering they outlast the mainshaft bearing you'll be okay if you get the maximum life potential a little off. They'll also get smooth pretty fast if you put a hair or bit too much preload on them as well.

Sometimes a trick to get the side cover to "pop" is undo every over nut a couple turns. Then go back and do about an 1/8 of a turn on the nuts that are tight, this is the easiest way I found it to happen.


The case looks good painted up....is it all empty inside? Might be something you'll remember if the gear carrier is pressed over the dowels.
_________________
T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review)

[Clatter]

Much thanks, Tim.
Makes good sense.
How much cover lift-off are we usually shooting for with new bearings?
Say a ball-park to know things make sense..


Case is fresh out of the dishwasher.. And empty.
There will be some assembly rash on it no doubt.
Rattle can will wash off with carb cleaner, be scratched away with a fingernail or anything else.
Only looks like that when it's drying in the sun..


What do you think of my teeth pics?
Am i on track as to what is good and what is junk?
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[modok]

[mcmscott]

The covers will lift off, this is the normal way of checking preload. Removing teeth also is perfectly normal, the person who argues it because the "extra" lash and then sells you a remachined slider just contradicded axactly what they just said,
Keeping everything together and in order then inspecting bearings is a far better way of building a trans.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,

68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250

[Clatter]

Excellent info gentlemen. Much appreciated.

Been plugging away..

Machinist clearanced a late drive hub for early gears as per Weddle instructions.
Will face it both sides for fitting 091 snap rings next once he has the mainshaft in hand.


He made me an assortment of different-thickness 3rd gear pinion snap rings as well.
Then charged me $120 for the work.
Wasn't expecting that. Now i know.
All setup for building a couple of pinion shafts now.
Pretty soon i coulda paid for a small lathe no doubt...

Thinking of drilling three oil holes in the hub.
There's no down-side to that, right?
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

[Clatter]

If this were your gear,
Would you break these teeth off?

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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

So, the newfangled angle of the dangle WRT synchro teeth has been discussed a bit,
And is more than a little confusing.
110 vs. 120 degree angle on teeth - the gear hubs, synchros and sliders all have to match to be right.

Or do they?

I think i have this straight.. Correct me if not..

From Tim's thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=160



We'll start with 1-2..

Here is a 1st gear 110 synchro - all 1st gears had 110 clear til the end, right?
No little semicircle notch - smooth edge - 110.

Little semicircle notch at the edge - 2nd synchro - 120.

Weddle sells both the "A" 110 synchros and the "B" 120 synchros so life is good and this is easy.
They also sell different wide and narrow-groove 1-2 sliders.
Tim's book also mentions that sometimes a 120 2nd gear synchro can be used on 1st.
The 'Failed Rebuild" box here was like that.
So I'm guessing it's not super important you use the right synchro if you're in a pinch?



Moving on to 3-4..

3-4 gets a little trickier for a couple of reasons.

First of all, there were different sliders for 3-4...
First they were 110 on both sides, then 110 on 3rd and 120 on 4th, then 120 on both 3 and 4.
Then they went to the wide groove, and it was 120 on both sides.
Then they went to the even later wide groove 002 slider that is 120 on both sides as well.
This one works with the later 'tit' cones, needs a 'hash' rail with the line on it, and interchanges with the 091 slider.

-Whew-

Problem comes in if you're like me messing with an earlier 3-4 shift assembly..
Weddle only sells 120 synchros for 3-4,
And they don't have any of the earlier sliders.
If you're going to be doing early 3-4 you just buy a whole hub and slider assembly.
https://weddleindustries.com/products/080-311-301-1/080-311-301-1

You'll be able to use the available later 120 synchros, and you'll have to make sure to use 120 cones on both 3-4 if you don't have them already.

Unless it doesn't really matter if they are 110 or 120..
In the real world,
does it make that much difference if all of the parts have the teeth angles match?
Can you get away with say a 110 slider but 120 synchro and 120 cone?

In my failed rebuild box here they sure didn't seem to care.
Wonder if that was a mistake, or if it just doesn't matter..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[mcmscott]

With what you are doing use 113311269b for 1 and 2, 113311295d for 3 and 4, and quit overthinking it. You can use "A" for first but absolutly not needed.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,

68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250

[Clatter]

Found my Rick Long CDs, and My friend Jeff let me borrow an early Bentley manual.

Even with all of these, -and- the parts diagram from Weddle,
It still doesn't say exactly how the early reverse gear shaft/bearings go together.
The brown Bentley even shows the late diagram twice..

Do i have this right? (Got this stuff mixed up. )
The early setup has a thrust washer at the end of the splines,
but they just call it part of item #13 in the diagram?
Also the other gear end has no washer under the snap ring?
No item #22 on early reverse?

Got a bunch of different shims in from 'Mr Gas'.
That way i don't have to disturb or scavenge from other boxes.
Fun to stab in different shims and feel how they turn, measure cover lift-off, etc.

Seems pretty straightforward setting preload with just the bare diff in place.
It will surely get more complicated when the backlash gets set and all.

With the thinnest shim being the .15mm - .006"
And .006 is the preload/lift-off we want,
It would make sense that Murphy will come into play,
And the numbers we get are either .003 or .009,
.003 turns really easily, and I'm not sure .009 is completely smooth.

In the end,
We'll do some backlash and run a pattern or two,
And then we'll decide if .009 pre-load makes sense.


I'm using set-up bearings here for now,
So the new bearings might make a difference too.

All in all good fun.
Really cool when the different shims get measured and installed,
And the liftoff and turning feel matches.

_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[nsracing]

Now you see why you need a lathe and surface grinder.

for super-fine finish I use a toolpost grinder to trim the galled surfaces.

I do not like breaking off teeth from gears.

[Casting Timmy]

If I was that far in I'd take the fat teeth off 2nd,


You can probably run a total shim stack of .064-.070". I'd probably want to be closer to the .070" total with using two stock side covers. Usually based on my experience the dual side cover cases are around .070" total and if using a 4.12 ring and pinion the shims are a little thinner on the right side than the non right side. (.030"/.040" guess to start)

3.88 ring and pinions I will usually split the total shim thickness is half as a starting point. (So if using .070" total I would do .035" per side)

The factory published a typical range for total shim stack of .060-.080" if I remember right. A single side cover case with a heavy duty side cover I would be included to start at the lower end and see how .065" felt. A dual side cover case with one of the side covers still magnesium I would want to test out towards the higher end .075" for total shim stack.
_________________
T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review)

[Clatter]

Thanks again for the input, gents.

These things slowly start making sense with all of your help.

Things got better here after having my press plates flycut to match.
One of these cheapy HF plates was like .080 thicker than the other.
Stuff got cocked all caddy-wompus and bound up sometimes.
Sketchy..
Now they're within a thou or two of each other and i can concentrate on pressing without any Harbor Fright.

Got my best German main-shaft bearing in and the Bruce plate in place.
Gear stacks got built up once i stopped fretting about teeth and just did it.
Looking closely, they had flipped the cones over from 3 to 4 so they got fresh tooth surfaces on the drive side.
Maybe that means they mighta used some loc-tite?
Guess we'll find out.
Only thing i left alone was those cones..

Got on a roll and pushed the gear carrier together..
AFAICT, it went together right 1St try?

Guessing that it's normal the reverse gear digging a groove into the cage like this?

The Failed Rebuild had a cage WAY worse than this one here, So I'm guessing that this is just a fact of life,
the reason people hate reverse on these and VW kept changing it?

Anyways,
Was wiggling sliders and adjusting forks,
(and shifting gears and making vroom noises )
Will be stopping now to read any/everything i can about fork adjustment,
And hopefully, we'll be pressing some more crap together!
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[nsracing]

I have been meaning to do some welding on the brass cage for the reverse gear to restore the worn surface. The gear gets floppy when that brass gets worn out.

Let us know how it turns out when you push the gear stack back into the tunnel.

here is mine bearing plate I machined -

[Clatter]

WHoo! Got me a whole day on this thing!

Beginner/Dummy learning curve in full effect!

Who can spot what's wrong in this pic?

There was some cussin' and a couple tries right here.
Really gotta hold yer mouth right stabbing the gear carrier into the case.
The main-shaft and shift rails have to be aligned as well as the reverse gear and pinion bearing (among other things).
Since i was paying so much attention to reverse i bumped the 3-4 shift rail out of adjustment and borked my 'clean neutral'.

Finally got it, though.. FAICT. Hits all gears smoothly and a clean neutral.

Was crazy right once it was right..
With the case all heated up the gear carrier drops right into place 100% easily with no resistance whatsoever.

Unfortunately, using Gaskacinch on the paper gasket on the hot case under lights dried it out good.
Here's hoping it doesn't weep..
Next time I'll stick it to the gear carrier or use some RTV or something instead.


Was really fun to move on with some assembly..

Got an early late sleeved throwout arm welded up ('69-'71 IIRC) and one of those adaptor sleeves so i can run my late clutch setup on this earlier case.
Also had to re-do my turning handle so i can use it on an input shaft.
Didn't think about how it would need a hole in it here..

After a whole day of chores and a bunch of other work i started kind of flailing along..
No lunch.. Coupla beers... Was in the zone.
Tim mentions in his book wedging some wood in to lock the slop out for some backlash measuring.
Only the finest oak of course.

That didn't really work. There's still slop at the flange splines as well as the side gears.

Decided to make a little bracket:

Picks up off a ring gear bolt:

Made up a mount for my mag base for
Reaching in thru the drain plug hole with a ball indicator to pick up my bracket:

After welding and grinding and assembling all day it was bad form to be doing fine measurements all tired and hungry.
Mom got home late and all pissed off and i was in a big hurry to button it up.
Turned around and bumped my mag base onto the ground..

It was an old favorite of mine from long ago that i managed to not crash for so many years..
Oh well,
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet, right?
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[VW_Jimbo]

WOW! You are all in!

I liked your comment about the transmissions following you home! Seems like, during my transmission rebuild time on the 70, I had 3 follow me home. I also have had 1 follow me home for the soon to be rebuilt split case, for the 54! But I will be driving up to Scott's place!

Looking good and it is a blast seeing you wiggle through it!
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Clatter]

Thanks for the props Jimbo.
Like watching your Oval build for sure - one of the best.

Dag, I sure want to get to Scott's somehow!
Bumbling along like this is fun but I'm sure it's all wrong compared to how a pro does it.

Damn 'life' thing is right in the way for a while here.
Kids have surf competitions now,
Helping my Mom move, house remodel crap, plus trying to stay married..
The pretty ones always take a lot more work.
Why didn't i go for 'sturdy' instead of 'pretty'?



This first trans I'm doing here is just the leftover 2nd-best parts from the 4 cores i ripped apart;
Just to get thru a first one.
Stuff i was going to toss - but turns out it's all good-enough to put together and run (hopefully)?

Will be a bunch of work to stab it just to run it and see.
PITA to swap a trans,
But I'm dying to know!

Will it howl or whine or sing on the highway? Will it shift clonky or leak?
Pop out of gear?
Wonder how many tries it'll take to get right..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[VW_Jimbo]

You will let us all know! I for one am awaiting that moment!
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Clatter]

Got another ball indicator and a couple evenings to play.
Best to do these things with a fresh head on.

Tried various shim combinations..
Unfortunately i had to rob the other core box but wrote down what i took so it may be replaced.

Writing down very clearly what shims did what helps a confused old codger;
turn around and forget what happened in about two seconds.

Will tell the story here in words to translate my hieroglyphics.
Maybe someone some day will find a newbie translation useful.

First of all, measuring lift-off isn't real accurate with these parts here.
Maybe because the paint thickness or the covers and case being from different boxes?
Another reason to paint the whole thing after assembly..
The numbers will vary from about zero to .008 on the same cover.
It seemed like we had a decent gap at say 6 and 12 o'clock,
And the sides didn't lift as much at three and nine.
So i wrote down numbers where it did lift for an average (sort of).

Also, 'bottom' here is the side where the mag cover goes - that would be fixed on a Single Side Cover case.

It seemed to want a total shim stack in the low .060s.
While that's the bottom of the range, and below what Tim says an early mag cover Double Side Cover case wants,
It just felt way too hard to turn with more.
Plus my lift off "measurements" were getting big.

Since i was still using setup bearings shim switching was easy.
Did a bunch to learn how much moving the diff translates into changing backlash.
Turning diff to check backlash with the little indicator/bracket can be tricky;
With preload present the diff turns hard and tends to suddenly pop free and bash my new indicator.
Thought i had bound it up with too much pre-load a couple times but just wasn't turning hard enough.

When i got it to where i wanted it, i swapped out the setup bearings for new.
New bearings gave about .008(!) more lift off vs. the used setup bearings.
Makes me think i need to go ahead and make another set of setup bearings out of a new set.
Because this meant turning feel needed checked again (and to get the wood out ) I pulled the diff for re-installation without the ring gear.
With my same shims and now greater lift-off the bearings turned a bit clunky.
The diff cover 'creaked' a bit and protested during tightening and loosening as well.
Decided to pull the measured .008 difference out of the shim stack and turning feel came into line - still stiff and hard to turn but not notchy or clunky.
My lift-off "measurement" moved back to the .008-ish it was before.
And, since i had some practice at this point, i guessed right as to where to split the difference for backlash first try.

Now, technically backlash should be .008, but this is a mild street car,
And, more importantly, I've heard that you'll get a better pattern and quieter running on a used R/P with a bit more backlash.
Puts it back closer to how it was..
Also, since I'm measuring outside the ring gear the real backlash is actually less than .009+.


Never used marking paste before but it seemed to make sense.
Rolling it thru the paste then marks the adjacent teeth,
And it gives a better view of the contact methinks..?

What you think of my pattern?
Maybe i lucked out..?
With the same case, R/P, pinion bearing and shims the heel/toe should have been right already.
Only thing i changed was the backlash by swapping to IRS.

Unless you guys see something wrong here.
I'm thinking it's time to glue it all up and run it?

Anytime something goes right like this i get skeered!
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[bigbore]

Sorry Iam late I was in a phone booth.
I didnt read though all this thread so forgive me if I repeat something. Being I have been doing these for over 40 years I should be able to add to the fun. I have a almost all NOS type 2 three rib to build and should do a build thread of it most likely the only time to see a nos trany being built. If it hasn't be mentioned for parts Weddle industry's is a great place for parts also germen transaxle.
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where its cold and snowy