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bigbore Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2003 Posts: 3296 Location: Wasilla Alaska
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Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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your you about done gloating if you have no use for the red thingy I will gladly dispose of it for you. _________________ where its cold and snowy |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12686 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Dude wow. What a legend, congrats man that stuff is gooooollllddd. _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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bigbore wrote: |
your you about done gloating if you have no use for the red thingy I will gladly dispose of it for you. |
Heynow, that's not fair.. It's all gratitude not gloating. I know I'm not worthy.
FWIW, of these two, Mr. Pate liked the cheap 1/4" beam wrench better.
Started playing around..
Will need to rig something proper to attach to a pinion shaft.
For now a 1" socket will grab splines.
Seems to me the small beam wrench does indeed do the job just as well.
While it's cool to see this same tool that's all over the manuals IRL,
It doesn't seem to do anything a normal inch-pound wrench won't do.
Paul Guard a.k.a. "Gears" here said that most of the factory tools are just time savers and you can build a few transaxles without most of them.
Like with my blocks of wood..
Now that i have this stuff, it's going to force me to up my game, though..! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Thanks to the eagle eyes of Bruce, i got my side covers switched out.
Looking again at the Bentley, i can see how it happened by following the manual.
There are a few pics of side covers without rings on the passenger (right) side.
Must have been that early side covers had no rings?
I'm guessing that's the case as VW added more rings over time.
Perhaps the early non-ringed covers made it into the book as they were new..
Anyhow, since i (foolishly) tossed the OG early cross-shaft i got an aftermarkey one.
Also got a new arm from Weddle and long-armed it.
Dunno which affermarket part was wrong,
but,
Can tell you it was a lot of cussing and grinding and filing to get these together.
Switching side covers was pretty cool in a way,
Because the shims followed what you might think would happen.
Switching covers with shims and all made the backlash grow to like .011 or more.
Switching shims back to the side they were before made the lash go back to where it was,
But,
The lash tightened up just a couple of thou. To .006" - close enough.
Makes sense because the aluminum ringed cover is stiffer than the mag one.
Cool to see the numbers matching what they 'should' based upon what's happening.
Usually,
The numbers make no sense and frustrate and confuse and make me wonder what I'm doing wrong! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Been several days - so I'll get caught up.
Been searching out diff shims - since they're $10 ea. at Weddle.
Since the 'Failed Rebuild' trans is "done" now, went back to the 'Dirt' trans.
Everything on this one will be the 'next level up' in quality.
Fresh cross-shaft bushings/seals, parts all zinc coated, new starter bush.
Got all the reverse gear stuff cleaned up.
Unfortunately that snap-ring is chewey and will need replaced.
Putting in a brand new small mainshaft roller was almost too easy using a VW295 tool.
While the first box just got the studs for the front mount backed out a bit,
This one i got some M8 threaded rod to make longer studs.
Started assembling a pinion shaft.
First time went well using heat.
Made a beginner mistake when it came time for third gear.
Splines need taken down just a tad to run the earlier gear.
Gowned up for grinding.
Tiniest bit of grit could ruin this party.
Humping and humping on the wet/dry for some 1st gear clearance;
Sure wish i had an old surface grinder.
Lots of work and still not cleaned up.
Anyhow, i got the stacks mostly built and the gear carrier, nose-cone, etc.
Will spare y'all the drivel.
Even with doing this one to a better level it's going much faster than my first one.
Got it mostly ready in about a day and a half. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: Opinions Requested |
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While these last few posts are just telling the story,
Here's where i take off my hat and ask for help..
When building a nice trans for yourself to keep,
With a lot of new parts (bearings),
Would you run these races?
Are these good as new or getting worn out?
How do you break off teeth?
Smacked these with a hammer/chisel and they didn't budge.
Is there anywhere to get a new 3.78 1St idler?
2.06 2nd idlers are only $44 new at Weddle. Wish 1St was like that..
Here i was all stoked on my modded 3-4 hub..
Oil holes in a good spot, snap ring tight and out of the way.
Turns out, now that i read some more, you want to face the hub -just- so,
In order for your end-clearances on 3rd and 4th to be just right (.008"-.010").
Because i just took the same amount off of both sides of the hub,
4th ended up with about .038" side clearance.
While it says in Tim's book some aftermarket gears will give you a lot of clearance,
Is this enough to cause trouble?
Start over?
Or rally on?
Thanks for taking the time and answering my questions.
I'll get good at this one day.
_________________ Bus Motor Build
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bigbore Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2003 Posts: 3296 Location: Wasilla Alaska
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Clatter wrote: |
bigbore wrote: |
your you about done gloating if you have no use for the red thingy I will gladly dispose of it for you. |
Heynow, that's not fair.. It's all gratitude not gloating. I know I'm not worthy.
FWIW, of these two, Mr. Pate liked the cheap 1/4" beam wrench better.
Started playing around..
Will need to rig something proper to attach to a pinion shaft.
For now a 1" socket will grab splines.
Seems to me the small beam wrench does indeed do the job just as well.
While it's cool to see this same tool that's all over the manuals IRL,
It doesn't seem to do anything a normal inch-pound wrench won't do.
Paul Guard a.k.a. "Gears" here said that most of the factory tools are just time savers and you can build a few transaxles without most of them.
Like with my blocks of wood..
Now that i have this stuff, it's going to force me to up my game, though..! |
ya well you have to get a little ribbing ya I never used one of those spining torque wrench I know what they feel like when right had no problems for the last 40 years. _________________ where its cold and snowy |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:03 pm Post subject: Trying Turning Tools |
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Had another day of play..
This time was all about trying a few of these new tools out and seeing what they did.
While I'm new to VW transaxles, I've been working with different mechanical things my whole life.
For a while i was helping build fixtures for the rebuild of helicopter transmissions.
Including this one, the Aerospatiale Lama:
https://www.airteamimages.com/aerospatiale-sa-315-lama_N316DJ_-private_126330.html
Helicopters have a few very interesting transmissions...!
The shop next door made dynos for testing helicopter transmissions; powered by two 454 crate motors.
Anyhow.. bla bla..
Here i heated up the case under the painter lights, stabbed the pinion shaft with it's new bearing and tightened up the nut.
The bearing slid right in to the case bore heated up hot.
Leaving it there for a half hour or 45 minutes, plus turning it a few times,
It gets too hot to touch with bare hands, even old rotten bare hands.
When i went to pull the bearing out, it took a lot of heavy levering to get free - that new bearing is nice and tight to the bore.
Next time i'll heat the case up before pulling a pinion.
Here, a new pinion bearing gave just 5 cmkp continuous turning torque,
The very bottom of the range listed in the Bentley:
What was interesting, is that while the pinion shaft was in the bearing, but just clamped in a vise,
The turning torque 'measured' basically the same, but the turning 'feel' was noticeably different.
Not sure if it was the pinion bearing being tight in the bore
or the nut being torqued down (or both),
But the pinion turned harder when tightened in the case.
Especially the initial 'break free' vs. continuous..
It also shows that even a newb like me can feel differences in turning torque better than one of those red doohickies.
Far as i could tell, this case, diff, and R/P had been assembled together since factory new.
Kept track of all the shims, and since a couple were a bit pounded out/worn,
replaced them with new ones from Weddle.
An initial check of backlash showed right about .006 or so using setup bearings.
Lift-off was a bit low, at around .004 and turning torque was down,
But that can be expected because these old setup bearings are really worn.
(Think i'll get a new set of carrier bearings to sacrifice as setup bearings).
Pushing in the new bearings using the new 456a tool is stupid easy.
All you have to do is pick the right set of dowel holes for your job.
Here i found two of those knurled diff-slop-taker-outers (don't know the VW tool number).
These are really slick; tightening down the center nut takes all of the slack out of the side gears and makes the backlash measurement 100%.
While some of these have a rod sticking out the side to pick up a measurement (pic in Bentley) i just used my home-made one thru the drain plug hole.
Also tried the 386A shaft lock;
This is for 091/094 i think, and fits over a stud loose, so doesn't lock out slop completely without some rigging.
Once i had it all set up i thought i'd bound it.
Turns out that a lot of pre-load showed up when i switched out bearings.
Couldn't turn the diff by the knurles by hand, but could easily with a set of big channel-locks.
Backlash came up right to .008 but the turning torque was stiff stiff.
So i pulled the pinion to get a good look at pre-load/turning.
Bentley says 25-30 cmkp continuous for new bearings,
But mine were just a bit over the scale; i could get that with just a bit of helping the turning knurl alone.
Using the little inch-pound wrench it read about 35-40 in/lbs,
So about 15% higher than max according to the bible.
Dry or oiled didn't change the reading much, if at all, but i could feel a bit of difference.
Lift-off wasn't crazy - about .008 or .009...
But,
By feel,
It wasn't 'clunky' at all..
Yes, it was stiff, very stiff, but still smooth.
The initial 'break-away' wasn't as pronounced as with the pinion.
I'm guessing maybe the new shims might be a bit thicker than the OG? Perhaps there's a difference in bearings?
Maybe that's just how stiff they're supposed to be?
Either way, it was a really fun time seeing/feeling/trying/measuring.
Maybe here soon I'll get to bring this stuff all to Scott and see what he thinks..
_________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Started in with the looonnng process of swapping a trans..
Takes 4-5x as many hours if you have "help"..
Thing CV flanges, strap kit,
And a (another) shit China part that doesn't fit - that front mount.
Not sure what car that thing was supposed to be put onto; certainly not a Beetle.
All that was wrong with the trans coming out was it's a tad 'clunky' going into 1st.
Can't wait to tear it open and look at the teeth!
SSsssooooooo....
Think that first one's gonna work??
Suspense is killing me! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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airschooled wrote: |
Dude wow. What a legend, congrats man that stuff is gooooollllddd. |
Glad to see you following along Robbie.
Anyone who has been trying to tool up for this will know what you're up against.
Most of this stuff isn't available anywhere.
TBPH, i was fine using blocks of wood. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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bigbore Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2003 Posts: 3296 Location: Wasilla Alaska
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Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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I have had to make some of my tools because you cant get them but I have a small machine shop to make tools. _________________ where its cold and snowy |
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nogoodwithusernames Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2014 Posts: 598 Location: CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Clatter wrote: |
Started in with the looonnng process of swapping a trans..
Takes 4-5x as many hours if you have "help"..
Thing CV flanges, strap kit,
And a (another) shit China part that doesn't fit - that front mount.
Not sure what car that thing was supposed to be put onto; certainly not a Beetle.
All that was wrong with the trans coming out was it's a tad 'clunky' going into 1st.
Can't wait to tear it open and look at the teeth!
SSsssooooooo....
Think that first one's gonna work??
Suspense is killing me! |
Lucky for you then I haven't been able to head down that way yet, woulda taken 2x as long with my help on top of the 4-5x _________________ 71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
74 914, 2.0L w/ D-Jet
-Derek |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12686 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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I’ve got all the tools I need over here, thanks.
Link
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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airschooled wrote: |
I’ve got all the tools I need over here. |
Oh, good! You have a mill to machine a sleeve and tighten up that bearing bore!
_________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Oh, and reminds me..
My first transaxle build has been a success (so far)!
Took it around the block and it hits all gears just fine.
On the highway it seems quiet on accel/decel.
Had a little issue with forgetting to tighten lug bolts,
So we'll be down for a little bit before we can do any more testing... _________________ Bus Motor Build
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VWporscheGT3 Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2006 Posts: 2073 Location: Gardnerville, NV
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Clatter wrote: |
Oh, and reminds me..
My first transaxle build has been a success (so far)!
Took it around the block and it hits all gears just fine.
On the highway it seems quiet on accel/decel.
Had a little issue with forgetting to tighten lug bolts,
So we'll be down for a little bit before we can do any more testing... |
Great news!!, now i need to find a single side cover trans as a core and make a trip your way , lol. Congrats man! |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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WhooHoo!! Had me a GREAT day yesterday!!
Made a pilgrimage to see the guru.
BITD before the Internet you got your info/schooling by actually going to shops.
If you were lucky the master would share some wisdom.
Doing this felt really good; hands-on real-life experience beats anything gleaned from a screen.
Scott was SO generous with his time and facilities i don't even know where to start.
I'll tell the story here..
Since Scott agreed to let me come by, i loaded up my "dirt" trans (the best of my parts so far) a couple cores, plus the remainder of my parts just in case.
Some tools, a case of Bud Light, sleeping bag, and a couple pounds of Bloody Mary marinated skirt steak for good measure.
Left at o' dark thirty and made the 3-hour drive in about four hours due to rain.
Scott was super welcoming, and pretty much dropped what he was doing to give my trans his attention!
It was pretty humbling, and a real eye-opener to see how many little things are involved with these boxes that i might have never guessed.
Could write for years about different things,
But for our purposes here and not to waste too much of Jeff's time I'll just concentrate on my trans.
Maybe showing my mistakes will help a newbie builder one day?
Only got the camera out a couple times;
Was having fun and way too absorbed to remember to take pics.
First thing obviously wrong:
Reverse gear shaft is 180 out - this gear goes in the diff area.
Got some well-deserved shit for that one.
Mighta figured that out after some cussing...
FWIW i did the reverse right on my first trans!
Also, replacing those reverse shaft bearings was a waste of time and money.
Scott says they are never bad.
Cars apparently don't do a lot of hard miles running in reverse.
Also, had gotten mis-matched reverse gear parts from Weddle, namely the mainshaft coupler gear.
Another waste of time/money, because the coupler gears don't wear.
A fool and his money are soon partying!
Was worried about these races and Scott was confused why.
Normal wear.
Learning the proper use of a shift fork jig was educational.
Big thing there is to make sure the detent is holding the fork evenly between slider grooves, obviously, but checking 'wiggle' at the end of the shift rod, not just at the fork/slider.
Said another way, best way to check forks is clamping a big vise-grip to the end of the shift rod, then feeling wiggle back-and-forth there.
Feeling even wiggle at the detent on the rod comes first, before you check between the fork/slider.
Hard to put into words, but if you're there it might make sense.
These teeth got broken off. Flip a coin on these ones.
Was glad to see Scott on the fence about doing so, because i was too, dig?
Tried to get an action shot, because sparks were shooting off as were teeth - like bullets!
Key here is using a very dull chisel, with a little 'tooth notch' in it.
Also backing up against a heavy 'anvil' but still protecting the gear.
Mendeola in the background of any trans pic lends legitimacy.
A surgeon will often marker things to be removed.
Can't be amputating the wrong limb!
This pinion bearing race was deemed good enough to run.
A race on the way out has metal starting to come off the surface, with pitting starting to show.
This is just normal trash in the oil getting smashed by the roller.
Another thing to do is figure out how the race was clocked when ran,
The outer race will get thrust loaded in one spot all the time. Look there.
The best of my used synchros were found too worn to be worth running.
While used German synchros might be OK for a race box that comes apart,
because this box will be run on the street, and hopefully stay together,
New Diehl synchros were installed on all four.
The cone could have been pressed down a bit tighter to the washer when the cone was welded on.
Other than that, my welded early 3rd should work and got a passing grade.
Scott also liked my oil holes in the hub.
The hub, however, wasn't machined right for what we're doing here.
This measurement was a problem:
I machined both sides of this late hub for both early 3rd and 4th as per Weddle's instructions.
Because i'm running a late 002 4th still, that meant that one side of the hub should have stayed un-clearanced.
Scott got me another hub and shaved it down on the lathe just on the 3rd side, as well and facing it for the two 091 snap rings.
Now the end play is even on both 3rd and 4th and is a little on the big side as these later gears might be, which is good.
Big mainshaft bearings are a subject into themself.
Only China 002 bearings or FAG 091 are available.
Later carrier can take either.
Scott says the China bearings are fine.
He isn't a fan of the 091 bearings - the plastic cage can drag on the nosecone, then, as the cage fails the bearing does too.
It can hit during severe use even if care is taken to make room.
I'm running an early 2-bolt nosecone, as many with early cars might do,
and am running the 091 bearing, so will show that work later.
Basically, just make sure the 2-bolt nosecone is clearanced like the 3-bolt,
and also take into account the bigger cage.
Checking out a few used mainshaft bearings, got this cool trick:
Smash different mainshaft bearings in the vise just snug and feel the turning.
New China, OG used German, dirty, clean, clean with oil..
Smashing them the same amount and comparing new to used will tell the story about their condition.
If clean and lubed, when free, even a marginal bearing will turn smoothly.
A little squoosh in the vise will start some lumpiness and chunkage to showing.
Tells the story very well when you're comparing bearings.
Like many many things in building these old boxes, your goals will determine if re-using a certain used part makes sense.
Something that was cool was Scott's take on my diff/R&P setup.
He does everything by feel, turning torque, back-lash, all of it.
I had measured the diff, R&P, turning torque different ways, ran a couple patterns, made tools, on and on and on.
Six ways from Sunday..
Scott did some turning by feel and came to the exact same conclusion that i had;
The carrier bearings were indeed really tight for a street car,
But not as tight as some race cars might be.
Since i plan on beating on it and can pull it down if the carrier bearings get noisy,
We left it tight like it was.
Cool to see that my conclusions matched what he thought.
Makes me feel like i can successfully setup a diff/R&P now.
Even if it takes me two days instead of his 10 minutes..
There were so many things i learned yesterday i couldn't even tell you but a tiny fraction of them,
So hopefully these few bits help someone.
Here my box is getting buttoned up, and I'm staring at it with this awed reverence.
You know that feeling..
Instead of all the unknowns and stress and questions,
Now we have something we know is good to go.
Got home last night at midnight tired and happy.
Super super stoked that Scott gave so generously of his time yesterday.
Can't thank him enough.
Can say with 100% certainty, that if any of you ever get a chance to get a trans from Scott or see him IRL take it. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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b-man Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 498 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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Scott’s good people.
Been there myself, really felt welcome. Made the 200 mile trek to meet the man.
Discussed my transaxle build in detail and dropped off a couple cores.
Excited to see what he comes up with. _________________ 1956 Dove Blue Panel
1966 Velvet Green Single Cab
1957 L41 Black Oval Window Beetle |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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b-man wrote: |
Scott’s good people.
Been there myself, really felt welcome. Made the 200 mile trek to meet the man.
Discussed my transaxle build in detail and dropped off a couple cores.
Excited to see what he comes up with. |
Not to thread jack,, but I found early short tubes and super diffs are in stock, your box of parts are getting bigger! _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9879 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle |
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This is good to read! Glad that you connected with Scott! He is a damn good man!
Trans looks great. Bet it will be awesome driving it, knowing that a master builder gave it the thumbs up and his own touch!
Scott: Good to see you helped another enthusiast! Wishing I could have been there! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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