Dummy Learns Transaxle

[mcmscott]

Glass bead away, won't hurt anything
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,

68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250

[Clatter]

[airschooled]

Thanks for asking about the snap ring pliers. I need a nice set myself; grandpa’s craftsman collection is wearing out….

Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com

[VW_Jimbo]

CLATTER!!!!!!!! Go to Scott! Pick up your parts and go! Take some beer. I think it was Bud light, but you ought to verify that. Then load all that junk up and go to school!

Scott is a master! You are going to have a great day! You are going to learn A TON! And you are going to get a transmission in 1 DAY!

THATS A DEAL MY FRIEND!
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Clatter]

[Clatter]

Oh, man, I'm starting to obsess over these things!

On the Weddle site all day, reading Tim's book over and over.
Reading and re-reading every thread on the STF transaxle forum..

This big question becomes how deep to go..
What to go ahead and spend money on, and what to just run..?
This was supposed to be a quick n' dirty to learn on,
So mistakes weren't super expensive,
But now i keep looking at the Weddle site..

For example:
This pinion bearing was super smooth when pulled and still coated in oil.
Now, looking closer, i can see micro pitting from likely trash in the oil?
$121..
Run it, or replace?

Reverse gears are about $50.
While these are SOP to replace usually,
The one on the left looks way better than the one on the right.
While the teeth are chewed on both, the one on the right they are laid clear over and the tips are gone.
Makes me think the one on the left was a recent replacement,
And a new gear would look just like that in a few months anyway?

Both 1-2 sliders have the same chew-age on the reverse gear teeth,
Despite the smaller reverse gears being so different.
Makes me think this kind of thing is normal?

If the teeth on 1-2 slider that really matter look decent
(at least to me FWIW )
Then i can save $84..

3-4 slider is a bit different story..
Weddle says they're NLA, and to use the 091 slider.
But it's NLA as well..

I'll stop this post here because i get way too long and nobody cares much about this stuff usually anyways, right?
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[jimmyhoffa]

Except me. I like transmissions more than engines sometimes.

The reverse gear design/wear is also why I "flick" VWs into reverse. Not RAM then into reverse, I FLICK them. I press the clutch in, wait some seconds for the disc to slow down as much as it's gonna, and then flick into reverse. Quickly, softly, and smoothly. Really saves those gears.
_________________
1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[Clatter]

Can't wait to get going on stuff like this..
There's this flat plate i have with wet/dry glued down.
My inner machinist wants to polish these chewed thrust faces down just so badly..

Will need to check to be sure clearances don't get opened up too much,
And the right thickness new washers are in-hand.

Makes me also think that, because they are cheap, you always get new washers any/everywhere you can,
To have end-play clearances right on the stack, opened up a bit for more oil,
Polished faces and new washers,
Nirvana..

Early washer-style pinion nut had two washers?
Is this normal?

Two shimss found under pinion bearing total .675mm
Should be a good starting point for setting up the R&P, no?
Jives with what Tim and others say is typical for a Gleason 4.12..

_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

[Ohio Tom]

I would use neither of those gears.

Reverser is the single most common failure I see in gear boxes.

That pinion bearing race is bad. Replace that too.

I'm sure you can find good used 3/4hubs. I have a bunch.

The 1/2 slider looks bad too. If the teeth are beat up, it's close to failure.

[mcmscott]

Try finding new 002 1-2 sliders right now.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,

68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250

[Clatter]

Excellent excellent info gentlemen.
Thanks for taking the time.
Really really appreciate the input.

I'm on it. Cry once..




First off, I want to run the .093 4th for the ratio. (shown on the right below)
Also, this other .88 4th (on left) has the dreaded wear lines on the race.

That means i need to run the later 3-4 splined hub to match the splined shaft,
And also run the later 3-4 slider.
This because the later synchro cones have tits on the teeth, and run no stop washer.

This pic is kind of deceptive.
The later hub is blasted, but the earlier slider (with 1 line) is also.
I need to use the later 3-4 slider (no line) that's not blasted.
Teeth with tits/no washer - later slider.. Right?

Really hoping this one's good enough..
NLA at Weddle, they say to use the 091 3-4 slider, but it's NLA also.

I know I'm getting ahead of a newby build,
But if Tim did it on his first build, and he has pictures in his book..

[jimmyhoffa]

Haha I was just about to say,

I'd never have used that reverse gear on the left in my trans that looked like that a year ago, but all the sudden that pinion is lookin' pretty good with parts availability these days!
_________________
1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[Clatter]

[Clatter]

Couple of challenges with parts availability at Weddle right now.
Not a big deal..


One is the big circlip at the end of the main-shaft.
004-311-317
https://weddleindustries.com/products/004-311-317/004-311-317
This one sucks because they seem to be burred up, spread open, or flew across the shop into infinity!
Time to go fishing..


Also the 3rd circlips in different thicknesses aren't available in the 'assortment kit'.
Enough have gone NLA that you pick what they have,
And if needed, we'll visit someone with a surface grinder..

Same with pinion bearing shims..
Hope to not even need any..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

Still at it..

Parts starting to trickle in.

Got a $50 re-bushed gear carrier from Rich Roberts in Prescott.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2346072
Test-fitting a shift rail in there it feels tight but still slides easily.
Really shows how worn-out the OG gear carriers i have really are.

1.32 3rd showed and looks nice.
Printed out the Weddle instructions for cutting the hub and gear.
Also getting my head around the narrowing to capture the hub with 091 snap-rings.


Doing test-fits, the thrust face of the hub is really burred up.
All that'll be blown away on the lathe here soon enough,
But it goes to show the thrust-loading forces at work.

Been final-cleaning the last of the pieces,
Going thru them all to find the best parts,
Like for example 2nd gear.. All four boxes could contribute a 2nd idler gear.. Same with synchros..
Also going thru every page of Tim's book several times to make sure what we got here and what it works with.
Newer style pinion bearing doesn't use the same washer, same with chromo pinion nut, same with 091 mainshaft bearing..
Etc.

Got the parts I'm gonna use figured out and in one place,
Glass-beaded them all prettypretty,
Holding them up to my cheek, giving them a kiss and making vroom noises.

Big expensive order from Weddle is due in this afternoon..
Need to get that all squirrelled away before Mom gets home from work.

Talking to the vapor blast place they get $100/hour..
So what I think I'll do is take it to the cheaper sandblast place with the gear carrier and nose-cone installed and all orfices plugged up.
We'll have the heavy crust blasted off with the big gun,
Then the vapor-blast guy can do the parts individually and hopefully they'll go quick since they're clean already..
At least that's the idea.
We'll see how reality plays out.

What with dropping all the big bucks on bearings and all,
I'm starting to have regret about not getting a super diff or billet side cover.
Or a 300M input shaft or billet gear carrier or...
Need to keep telling myself that this ain't THAT trans..

There's a dual-ring side cover i could rob off the '75-up zig-zag shift-rib trans sitting here.
It's getting a billet cover one day anyways, right?

So far, I'm thinking I'll weld the cone on the 3rd gear i got.
Since the thicker stop washer will prevent full engagement,
And since it's been on/off a couple times it might be looser.
(and it'll be in the lathe for cutting anyways).

But what about 4th?
It's a fine-tooth tits-on-teeth 002 style, so it's brazed on, right?
That means it's not likely to spin, correct?


Also thinking of tightening up the diff spider gears to get deeper engagement.
Like in Tim's book...
Even though it's not a super diff,
Seems that these 10-tooth spiders could benefit from having less slop and deeper engagement..

What you guys think?
Am i asking for trouble and wasting my time?
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[evanfrucht]

One comment I have... I think it will actually be more expensive and time consuming to media blast and then have it vapor blasted after. More gas, picking up, dropping off, etc. Even if it only cost you $10 bucks total it still might not save you any money. You are correct that vapor blasting won't clean off VERY heavy caked on crud well... but you can scape and brush that off well enough with diesel fuel, mineral spirits, or thinner, etc. Then use some some dish soap or other similar degreaser, scrub it down and hose off. It will be clean enough for the vapor blaster to not have to do extra work. Vapor blasting pretty easily removes surface contaminants like a thin layer of oil and dirt while (or right before) it conditions the surface. Most of his time spent will be achiveing a proper surface finish. Vapor blasting isn't a quick pass kind of deal, you have to go slowly and methodically in order to get the surface "peened" over uniformly. The thin layer of road grime left over after scrubbing will get cleaned off almost instantly when he starts. You see what I'm suggesting?
_________________
1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )

[Casting Timmy]

If you can machine the gears, just buy two of the thin 3rd gear clips and machine it for a tight fit.

I don't think either of those reverse gears look ideal, the one of hte left it looks like the top of the gear tooth tapers towards the engagement side. The very top of the gear tooth needs parallel sides to have confidence of it staying engaged. The hard reality is that there's probably more than one guy with that gear as "working" in their current box.

I've wondered more than once with the 4th gears with the bearing needle marks inside. On the perspective of it as an idler I would wonder if it just gives some more oil pockets. In use the gear hits the needles under torque and doesn't move with them or over them. Probably a common enough ratio I would look for another one.

The pinion bearing has a "bruised" surface, it's the particles in the oil get smashed, researching that with bearing manufacturer's while not ideal it wasn't always a reason to trash it. The big pinion bearing usually goes bad with cracking the inner race, my guess is you have a usable one in your stash already. Press a few on after cleaning them and see which one still has some drag to it. the factory inspection changed over time to no longer look at turning torque and just make sure it didn't have axial play in the sense the shaft at top moving side to side.

I've always wondered about how much of a replacement the 091 slider is for the 002, the 091 keys or dogs or whatever you want to call them have tops that are longer and the slider has a wider cutout....so if you "upgrade" an 091 system to use the 002 keys it feels different with shifting as you have play before hitting the keys with those wide slots. You can use an 002 slider in place of a 113 slider and the 002 sliders are easier to find a good used one.

I know the 091 synchros are stronger and preferred by some, even knew one guy that tried making solid 091 3-4 keys, but I don't think that experience panned out.

An upgrade is flipping the 002 bearing so teh cage is captured by the thrust washer, at first I thought the 091 mainshaft bearing was better, but I think ht e 002 style with the washer allows the washer to umbrella back and wiggle so you don't get the friction heat problems associated with the 091.
_________________
T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review)

[Clatter]

Thanks for chiming in Tim. Mucho appreciated.

Got carried away sitting at my desk at work last week and ordered about $800 worth of bearings and stuff from Weddle.
New 1-2 slider, New pinion bearing, 091 main-shaft bearing, chromo nut, and all the roller bearings for the gears and shafts...
Tried to get a whole assortment of the different shims and clips so i can grind them to different sizes and be able to do what's needed and in the future.
Have an 091 that needs gone thru and i keep thinking how this 'failed rebuild' trans -might- be able to be done up as a stock quick-n-dirty IRS?


Got carried away with this one since it's shaping up more and more..
4.12, 3.78/2.06/1.32/.093.
Sound familiar?


Spent all day today cleaning in gas (surprise!) and glass-beading.

Welded up cross-shaft.

Heard it's best to use steel forks, but even if they're thinner than the brass?
Looks like i got a pretty nice brass one here..

Started messing with end-play shims in the diff.
Without even messing with it, looks like about .007+" end-play.
Is it worth it to do all that sanding to get the end-play and spiders tighter?
Even on just a stock 2-spider diff?

Since i forgot to order the little plugs for the detents, i decided to drill/tap them for NPT plugs like galley plugs in a motor.
PITA! Won't do that again.
Here the main parts are bolted up to go to the blaster,
And all the holes plugged except for the axles - the blaster will have some of those.

It was the vapor-blast guy who suggested i have the major crust blown away before going to see him.
My powder-coater has a big screw compressor with a cabinet you can walk in and a nozzle like a fire-hose.
She'll do that case in about 10 minutes all together like that.
Will take the parts apart and give them to the vapor guy to do.
He's a vintage motorcycle guy so he usually does small stuff and gets $100/hour.
Should work out good. We'll see. They're both local.


After my big Weddle goodie box showed up (super fast, too! ) i hid everything away and got started in measuring synchros and double-checking what i got and where it goes.
I think this is all my stuff here finally.

Was going to heat up that big new pinion bearing but chickened out.
Still have a few days or a week before the case is done so no rush.
Plus,
I'm not sure if maybe I'll get a chance to have Scott hold my hand with lathe work.
If not, I'll go see my friend with the lathe and give it a shot.

Still have to be 100% sure it's exactly right and what it should be..

Progress is progress.
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Jennepher]