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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1046 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:24 am Post subject: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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I have a very nice set of 94mm cylinders and am looking for solid, well-made 94B pistons to drop in them for my 2176cc off-road engine, which will run out of steam around 6200RPM.
I think the "Forged" Mahle's fit the bill, and the AA hypers don't, as I want decent overrev cushion due to the nature of the use of the engine. Does anyone know if I can get the forged-but-not-forged MAHLE pistons individually from anyone, without the cylinders? I have been unable to find a supplier.
(Someone I trust has had a good experience with these too- I'm evaluating all my options here.) https://aapistons.com/products/vw-92mm-type-1-piston-kit-1 _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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Dauz Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010 Posts: 1790
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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I would just get wisecos and be done with it |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1046 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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UK Luke interesting, that echoes the other experience I was told of.
Haha Dauz you're gonna be the devil on my shoulder then, eh? That thought has crossed my mind several times, only pushed off by the fact that they are probably a bit noisy cold due to Wiseco's forging alloy of choice, and I do daily the car. I wasn't sure which ring package was right for me either, the thin or thick ones. Your suggestion definitely isn't absurd.
The engine does occasionally see 5500 RPM/75 MPH sustained through loose deserty sand stuff, shock load off-road, 260F oil and 380F head temps, etc, etc, so premium hardware is on the table for consideration. Pretty much everybody I talk to is drag racing or stoplight-to-stoplight bursting so my sustained-load sustained-RPM examples are far and few between.
The rest of the engine is, in summary:
CB 78.4mm Forged crank
Scat 5.5 I-beams
Engle FK-42 With Magnum Straight cuts
Scat 1.4:1 rockers
MOFOCO 042s with matching 34mm-runner high flow end castings on top of them, probably 120-130HP capable. _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3574 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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Rev limiter !!!!! |
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1046 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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I'm running a CB black box with the limiter at 5800 with my engine configuration now, but it has seen 6800 a time or two. Everybody makes mistakes, missed shifts, accidentally grab the wrong gear through braking bumps into a messy corner trying to stay in the power for the corner exit. It's a wild world out there when you leave the pavement! Its easier for us dirty boys to just build in some safety margin and sleep easy. Don't wanna go rippin' wrist pins!
I'll be looking to run your Beehives and pushrods on this build too! Ever run them with the Engle FK-42 and 1.4s? _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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Dauz Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010 Posts: 1790
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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jimmyhoffa wrote: |
I wasn't sure which ring package was right for me either, the thin or thick ones.
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1-1.2-4mm ring package |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3574 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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jimmyhoffa wrote: |
I'm running a CB black box with the limiter at 5800 with my engine configuration now, but it has seen 6800 a time or two. Everybody makes mistakes, missed shifts, accidentally grab the wrong gear through braking bumps into a messy corner trying to stay in the power for the corner exit. It's a wild world out there when you leave the pavement! Its easier for us dirty boys to just build in some safety margin and sleep easy. Don't wanna go rippin' wrist pins!
I'll be looking to run your Beehives and pushrods on this build too! Ever run them with the Engle FK-42 and 1.4s? |
Never used any FK-4X cams as I am a street guy and IMO they belong on low mileage use off road cars. Yes my very ridged pushrods would be a good combo with a steep ramp cam like the FK-4X series cam. As far as the springs I would not use my street spring with more than .525" lift with your steep ramp cam. The weekend warrior spring would be a better choice. Only selecting the wrong gear should over rev it.
Dan |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7179 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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The FK41-43 cams are fine for a street/off road engine. From thereon up you get into the world of bushed lifter bores as a precaution/necessity.
That said you might as well just add 1,25´s to your 218/119. That will give you very close to the same performance window and at the same time give you the split dur/split lift which you will like in a limited carburetion off road engine.
while just about on the limit of what those Beehive´s will handle lift wise they are a great choice (The 250 lbs ones) for such an engine. - Some time ago I built a 2165 engine where we tested limits with Kadrons and a few other parts. This engine runs exactly that, (218/119 w. 1,25´s) 40 x 35 mm Manley valves, Ti retainers, Oteva S75 250 lbs springs, CB Aluminum PR´s and CB 80 gr. lifters. It revs to 7000 without problems of any kind. The engine is limited to 6800 though as it has stopped making power (Peak plus 700 rpm)
Don´t like the off the shelf Wiseco´s much. They are too heavy IMHO. for a slower reving engine it doesnt matter that much, but if you want it nippy it does.
As for the thin ring pack on a semi off road engine, is that a good idea? That was one of the situations where I would opt for slightly thicker rings, but I´m speculating. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Dauz Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010 Posts: 1790
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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Funny. The Wiseco 94Bs are literally 33 grams lighter than the Mahle 94Bs. The 2x2x4 Wiseco rings are for forced induction with the top ring end-gapped appropriately for expansion. I replace the second ring with a total seals. The 1x1.2x4s are for NA. |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9131 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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I have set of AA truforged that have stood up to being beat on in my formerly 12:1 compression engine that routinely saw 7-8000rpm and now are doing yeomans service in that same engine under 10lbs of boost.
Just an FYI. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7179 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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Dauz wrote: |
Funny. The Wiseco 94Bs are literally 33 grams lighter than the Mahle 94Bs. |
Now that´s a little interesting. All the shelf Wiseco´s I have had in my hands were some 30 grams heavier than a regular Mahle B. Apparently they have changed the design, unless yours were order specific pistons. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1046 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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Wow this is good Intel folks, keep it coming. I have heard good things about the AA forged, but in my mind, when I'm at $340-$360 for AAs and Wisecos are $400, I'll go for the Wisecos.
There are a lot of broad generalizations out there about weights of different styles of components that have turned out not to be true, at least in some specific cases for me. I won't detract from the piston talk too long, but I've always generally heard H-beams rods are lighter than I beams, for example, but at least in Scat's case they are the same weight almost to the gram, on the 5.5" VW journal configuration. Who knew? Well, some of you probably did. _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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Forged racing style pistons should be lighter due to having a shorter piston pin.
The old cima/mahle forged piston design is basically a bucket with a handle That handle isn't light.
The flexy bucket piston is "in a way" is a nice match for the thin weak cylinders.
For offroad apps IMO you may be better off to go more stroke and less bore.
82 stroke and thickwall 92 with forged piston of any brand.
I get the NEED to rev. Some offroad apps you usually stay below 4k rpm 95% of the time but also need to be able to rev past peak power. Good luck controlling rpm when the tires aren't contacting the ground.
Or just stick to the plan and find some mahle pistons
I don't know why they would be hard to find maybe just bad luck at the moment.
The current chinese cylinders are thicker at the base but thinner at the head stud reliefs, kind of a draw........but they aren't harder. For street apps they don't need to be so hard as they were, but
A hard cylinder is good for longevity in those mining air compressors which is the official application anyway.
I don't think you will gain a lot overthinking this. |
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1046 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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Agreed on those closing staetments Modok. For my RPM range I doubt it will matter.
I am on the hunt for Mahle 94Bs. What's making this hard is I already have multiple sets of good/perfect 94mm cylinders, am on a bit of a budget and it appears buying Mahle's "normal" pistons outright is basically impossible.
If I find good Mahle's I'll need no cylinder honing work, but Wisecos and likely other forged options I'll need to bump up a few thousandths. This is trivial IF competent local machine shops were abundant near me. They are not.
I'm okay with used as long as the skirts aren't collapsed and they aren't scraped to hell. I'm gonna prowl the classifieds for a few weeks. _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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stealth67vw Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2004 Posts: 1851 Location: Grass Pants, Orygun
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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3 years ago I used a set of AA hypereutectic cast 94 As in a very cheap sweep the floor 1915 street/strip engine 48 IDAs and 9.9:1 compression. I spun it to 7,600 rpm every gear except 4th. The car went mid 8s in the 1/8th and high 13s in the 1/4. They are going onto a friends sweep the floor 1915 but with a turbo. _________________ John Bates
JB Machining Services
1967 street Bug 2276 w/ 48 IDAs, 2020lbs with driver
7.76 @ 89.55mph 1/8 mile
12.34 and 108.10 mph 1/4 mile |
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KEGZ Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021 Posts: 288 Location: Whales Vagina
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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Mahle Pistons outright? |
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Alstrup wrote: |
Dauz wrote: |
Funny. The Wiseco 94Bs are literally 33 grams lighter than the Mahle 94Bs. |
Now that´s a little interesting. All the shelf Wiseco´s I have had in my hands were some 30 grams heavier than a regular Mahle B. Apparently they have changed the design, unless yours were order specific pistons. |
wisecos with the 4.3cc positive displacement are 40g lighter than forged mahles. |
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