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2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start.
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Magonlia
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:41 pm    Post subject: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Hi all, I am new to the Samba. My name is Graeme, I just picked up my first VW and Vanagon a couple weeks ago. It is a 1983 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper. I snagged it from my uncle who had it sitting on his driveway for 4 years. It was running when it was parked about that time.

The vehicle does crank but there is no power to the fuel pump at all. I've ran a direct wire to the fuel pump and yes, the fuel pump does work. I tried starting it with the direct line to the fuel pump but still nothing.

There is spark and the spark plugs look in relatively good shape.

I then moved on to injectors, i removed them from the intake and cranked it over and there was no spray... I then checked the fuel pressure at the fuel rail on the left-hand side just by attaching a hose and observing the fuel flow and it seemed like it was flowing at a significant rate with the fuel pump on.

I checked the voltage at the injectors while cranking over the engine and i was getting about 10V. Is it possible to get power to injectors without them operating, unless their clogged i suppose? I was using a multimeter to check the power to them so i couldn't tell if voltage was flickering or not.

I went through the AFC System check on 24.9 of the Bently and there were a few tests that weren't within spec. First was the head sensor test, it called for 2100-2900 ohms and i got 1620 ohms. I've read that a head sensor could also cause the injectors and fuel pump to malfunction but it's odd that there is spark.

All the injector wires and resistors called for "approximately 7 ohms" whereas I received around 11 ohms. Would that be considered within spec?

Thirdly, the pump circuit called for 12V from pin 20 and ground and I received nothing.

As you have read, there isn't a lot going right and I am pretty inexperienced when it comes to vehicle wiring so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Magonlia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Refresh, still suffering...
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magnolia wrote:
.... from my uncle who had it sitting on his driveway for 4 years. It was running when it was parked about that time.

I then moved on to injectors, i removed them from the intake and cranked it over and there was no spray... I then checked the fuel pressure at the fuel rail on the left-hand side just by attaching a hose and observing the fuel flow and it seemed like it was flowing at a significant rate with the fuel pump on.

I checked the voltage at the injectors while cranking over the engine and i was getting about 10V.

I went through the AFC System check on 24.9 of the Bently and there were a few tests that weren't within spec. First was the head sensor test, it called for 2100-2900 ohms and i got 1620 ohms. I've read that a head sensor could also cause the injectors and fuel pump to malfunction but it's odd that there is spark.


Did you check all the engine bay grounds?

The 4 YO fuel may be a factor. Double check this here but I think it's safe to spray starter spray down the throttle body to see if the engine will fire.

10 volts should be enough to operate the injectors.

On P. 29.4 I see reference to the sensor in AFM. That sensor and sensor at head are different things.

Was power fed directly to fuel pump while you checked for injector spray?

Neil.
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Magonlia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Magnolia wrote:
.... from my uncle who had it sitting on his driveway for 4 years. It was running when it was parked about that time.

I then moved on to injectors, i removed them from the intake and cranked it over and there was no spray... I then checked the fuel pressure at the fuel rail on the left-hand side just by attaching a hose and observing the fuel flow and it seemed like it was flowing at a significant rate with the fuel pump on.

I checked the voltage at the injectors while cranking over the engine and i was getting about 10V.

I went through the AFC System check on 24.9 of the Bently and there were a few tests that weren't within spec. First was the head sensor test, it called for 2100-2900 ohms and i got 1620 ohms. I've read that a head sensor could also cause the injectors and fuel pump to malfunction but it's odd that there is spark.


Did you check all the engine bay grounds?

The 4 YO fuel may be a factor. Double check this here but I think it's safe to spray starter spray down the throttle body to see if the engine will fire.

10 volts should be enough to operate the injectors.

On P. 29.4 I see reference to the sensor in AFM. That sensor and sensor at head are different things.

Was power fed directly to fuel pump while you checked for injector spray?

Neil.


Yes, I believe I have checked all the engine bay grounds, is there somewhere that has a list of all the locations?

I have changed the fuel so that shouldn't be an issue.

Regarding the 29.4, you are right, I tried the test with the other flag and got a good 12 V.

Yes, power was fed directly to the fuel pump when checking the injector spray.

Update, to make sure my injectors were good, I ran direct wires from the battery to the injectors and they sprayed perfectly. Therefore, I believe I have a grounding issue somewhere for the injectors.

The ignition coil is overheating and I believe it's because there is no continuity between the negative port and ground.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Each Bentley wiring diagram has a list of ground points. e.g. p 97.18 Cleaning ground points and wire terminals aside, closely inspect the wiring, especially exposed wires near heat sources, confirm continuity of them, check if connector contacts are clean.

Re: 12 volts on pin 20. Ensure your VOM is connecting to a known good ground. If you have a known good ignition switch, try swapping that in. Easy to do.

It sounds like you've got some electrical skills so that's a big plus.

The Bentley image of ECU, wires, plugs indicates to me that the ECU needs an input to tell it to supply a ground to pulse injectors. Maybe from ignition coil 1 ? The ignition coil getting really warm or somewhat hot might be normal but keep an eye on it.

Your bus likely has the non California engine management. This makes diagnosis somewhat simpler.

Here or in the Bay window forum you might find a link to a PDF of the Pro Training manual for air cooled AFC. Pretty sure that thing exists.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

The ECU needs a signal from the coil to pulse the injectors. There should be a white wire hooked up to the #1 (-) negative side of coil to accomplish this. If the wire is hooked up instead to the #15 (+) side of the coil, you will get no signal to the ECU and no pulse to the injectors.

The coil would not heat at all if it was not getting a ground through the ignition points (assuming you have points instead of electronic ignition). If you leave the ignition on for too long while you troubleshoot you can do damage to the ignition points and potentially to the coil.
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brickster
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Since it sat for 4 years, I would suspect that a rodent has been at work on your wiring. Are there any signs of that?

Here's a thread with some photos of your wiring and troubleshooting steps:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=723461

In particular, I would focus on your ground connections. To say that these vehicles have poor wiring and grounding is an understatement. It's worth your time to go over every ground connection carefully. If they can't be cleaned, replace them. If the grounds for the ECU are bad enough, it will cause all of the other readings to be off as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

I don't have any new advice, but I do wonder if there's a place somewhere that you wise folks would recommend for wiring of our air cooled vanagons? I have been working on chasing down an intermittent starting issue, just put in new heads (something caused a valve seat to drop, I suspect wiring issue), and I want to replace some of those big important wires such as fuel pump/fuel pump relay, starter/battery, alternator/battery, and I post it on this thread as it could be an issue for your van too. Age, rodents, damn corrosion. Time for some tinned marine wires for me, but I want to get the measurements right. Why is that not part of the wiring diagram?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Beast McGee wrote:
I don't have any new advice, but I do wonder if there's a place somewhere that you wise folks would recommend for wiring of our air cooled vanagons? I have been working on chasing down an intermittent starting issue, just put in new heads (something caused a valve seat to drop, I suspect wiring issue), and I want to replace some of those big important wires such as fuel pump/fuel pump relay, starter/battery, alternator/battery, and I post it on this thread as it could be an issue for your van too. Age, rodents, damn corrosion. Time for some tinned marine wires for me, but I want to get the measurements right. Why is that not part of the wiring diagram?


I'd start your own thread, Beast. But I will say that unless you have obvious rodent damage, you are better off cleaning/improving/replacing all grounds. If you still have electrical signal issues after that, look at those particular wires and deal with them one at a time.
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Magonlia
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
The ECU needs a signal from the coil to pulse the injectors. There should be a white wire hooked up to the #1 (-) negative side of coil to accomplish this. If the wire is hooked up instead to the #15 (+) side of the coil, you will get no signal to the ECU and no pulse to the injectors.

The coil would not heat at all if it was not getting a ground through the ignition points (assuming you have points instead of electronic ignition). If you leave the ignition on for too long while you troubleshoot you can do damage to the ignition points and potentially to the coil.


How could i check if the ignition points are bad?

You were correct, the white wire was running to the + side of the ignition coil but there is still no ground pulsation to the injectors.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magonlia wrote:

How could i check if the ignition points are bad?.


My advice there would be to get John Muir's Idiot Book and do some bathroom reading.
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Magonlia
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Update as I haven't been making much progress...

I replaced the fuel relay thinking that would do the trick. Still nothing though, I did realise one thing though was that the fuel pump would run when I cranked the engine but not when I turned on the ignition.

There is still no spray from the injectors, I went through the entire engine harness checking for breaks and continuity. I did find some weird stuff going on with the wiring as injector #2 wires had been swapped and the wiring to the right side of the fuel relay wasn't correct. I fixed this according to the pg 97.19 of the Bentley.

I have tested the power to the injectors with a known good ground, there is voltage therefore I know it's on the grounding side.

I have checked all the groundings I can find.

Another odd thing I noticed was that on the ECU, pin #20 is missing. The wiring for pin #20 runs to 86b of the fuel relay along with another wire from the air intake sensor (#36). Is this important?

So to make things clear, the issues I am having right now is that the fuel pump isn't getting power when the ignition is turned on and the injectors aren't receiving a ground pulsation.

I am thinking that the hall generator or the ECU is bad? Does that seem reasonable?
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Magonlia
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
The ECU needs a signal from the coil to pulse the injectors.


I attached a test lamp to both sides of the ignition coil and cranked the engine over, the lamp pulsated normally. This means that the hall generator is good, right?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magnolia wrote:


There is still no spray from the injectors, I went through the entire engine harness checking for breaks and continuity. I did find some weird stuff going on with the wiring as injector #2 wires had been swapped and the wiring to the right side of the fuel relay wasn't correct. I fixed this according to the pg 97.19 of the Bentley.

I have tested the power to the injectors with a known good ground, there is voltage therefore I know it's on the grounding side.

Another odd thing I noticed was that on the ECU, pin #20 is missing. The wiring for pin #20 runs to 86b of the fuel relay along with another wire from the air intake sensor (#36). Is this important?

So to make things clear, the issues I am having right now is that the fuel pump isn't getting power when the ignition is turned on and the injectors aren't receiving a ground pulsation.


The air cooled AFC pro training manual is a great addendum to the Bentley.

Not sure if you meant that wires to #2 injector are reversed but there is no polarity on an injector. IOW, if wires to an injector are reversed, it should still function.

IF there's molested and/or non stock wiring going on at the fuel pump relay, it's possible a previous owner got in there to try and make the pump run whenever the key is turned to ignition on. i.e. to effectively bypass the relay and other parts involved.

I re read the AFC pro training manual section on this to confirm what I eluded to and Wild things comment:

the ECU needs an RPM signal (negative) in order for it to be able to provide a ground to the injectors to make them open. (aka pulse). That negative signal would be from the 1 circuit which is negative and is present at one of the coil connections. That negative connection should be shown on the coil at terminal.

If you posted a pic of the engine bay, this might help. You mention the engine has points. It would help to know for sure if you have California or Federal type engine management.

The pro training manual I suggested shows a note re: California model 2.0; ECU 28 is used instead of 20 for the fuel pump circuit test. That may apply to your van.

It's normal for the fuel pump not run with key turned to ignition on.

As you crank engine, air moving through the AFM moves the flap and that flap causes a switch to close which in turn allows the fuel pump to run.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
10 volts should be enough to operate the injectors.


Upon further reading, the AFC pro manual states that the injectors 'work best with about 3-5 volts'. If I'd mentioned using battery voltage to check them, that may not be a good idea.

Interesting to note that the resistors that reduce 12 volts for that purpose are either externally mounted or inside the ECU (for California model).

Neil.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

[quote="Vanagon Nut"]
Magnolia wrote:


The air cooled AFC pro training manual is a great addendum to the Bentley.

Not sure if you meant that wires to #2 injector are reversed but there is no polarity on an injector. IOW, if wires to an injector are reversed, it should still function.

IF there's molested and/or non stock wiring going on at the fuel pump relay, it's possible a previous owner got in there to try and make the pump run whenever the key is turned to ignition on. i.e. to effectively bypass the relay and other parts involved.

I re read the AFC pro training manual section on this to confirm what I eluded to and Wild things comment:

the ECU needs an RPM signal (negative) in order for it to be able to provide a ground to the injectors to make them open. (aka pulse). That negative signal would be from the 1 circuit which is negative and is present at one of the coil connections. That negative connection should be shown on the coil at terminal.

If you posted a pic of the engine bay, this might help. You mention the engine has points. It would help to know for sure if you have California or Federal type engine management.

The pro training manual I suggested shows a note re: California model 2.0; ECU 28 is used instead of 20 for the fuel pump circuit test. That may apply to your van.


Neil.


Sorry, my van is Federal type to clarify.

Didn't know that the injectors didn't have polarity, just noticed one injector had opposite wiring compared to the other injectors...

Yes, the white wire on the negative side of the ignition coil runs to pin #1 of the ECU. I have made sure there is continuity in between. I've also checked for this negative pulsation that you refer to by using a test lamp and running leads to both sides of the ignition coil. The test lamp flashes/pulsates when i crank the engine over like it should and is solid when the ignition is on. Therefore, the ECU should be receiving this pulsation. Correct? This is making me think the ECU is bad?

I will upload pictures of the engine bay tomorrow.

Thank you guys for all your feedback, i appreciate it greatly.

I did some reading and found that other ECU's of the same type (ie. 1982 air-cooled federal manual Vanagon) are missing the pin 20 as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:
10 volts should be enough to operate the injectors.


Upon further reading, the AFC pro manual states that the injectors 'work best with about 3-5 volts'. If I'd mentioned using battery voltage to check them, that may not be a good idea.

Interesting to note that the resistors that reduce 12 volts for that purpose are either externally mounted or inside the ECU (for California model).

Neil.


I only tested one injector for a second just to make sure that they didn't all fry somehow.

And yes, the resistors are mounted right beside the fuel relay on my van, i have checked them for resistance and they were within spec according to 24.6 figure 7 of the Bentley.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magonlia wrote:

So to make things clear, the issues I am having right now is that the fuel pump isn't getting power when the ignition is turned on and the injectors aren't receiving a ground pulsation.


The fuel pump only runs when one of two conditions is met.

1. It runs while the engine is being cranked, with the fuel pump relay being triggered by the #50 starter circuit.

2. It runs when the door in the AFM is opened by air flow entering the spinning engine.

Quote:
I am thinking that the hall generator or the ECU is bad? Does that seem reasonable?


You need to verify if you have a Hall based ignition system or a contact point based system. In general for a 1980 Vanagon ignition points were used on Federal vans while the Hall system was used on California rigs.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

[quote="Magonlia"]
Vanagon Nut wrote:
Magnolia wrote:


The air cooled AFC pro training manual is a great addendum to the Bentley.

IF there's molested and/or non stock wiring going on at the fuel pump relay, it's possible a previous owner got in there to try and make the pump run whenever the key is turned to ignition on. i.e. to effectively bypass the relay and other parts involved.

It would help to know for sure if you have California or Federal type engine management.

The pro training manual I suggested shows a note re: California model 2.0; ECU 28 is used instead of 20 for the fuel pump circuit test. That may apply to your van.


Sorry, my van is Federal type to clarify.

Yes, the white wire on the negative side of the ignition coil runs to pin #1 of the ECU. I have made sure there is continuity in between. I've also checked for this negative pulsation that you refer to by using a test lamp and running leads to both sides of the ignition coil. The test lamp flashes/pulsates when i crank the engine over like it should and is solid when the ignition is on. Therefore, the ECU should be receiving this pulsation. Correct? This is making me think the ECU is bad?

I did some reading and found that other ECU's of the same type (ie. 1982 air-cooled federal manual Vanagon) are missing the pin 20 as well.


Ok. Good stuff. This appears to be the AFC manual I refer to:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/afc_fi_training_troubleshooting_manual.php

Some thoughts:

Do a compression test, check timing, ensure plug wire position is correct. For the points, pretty much all you can do is a visual inspection. The condenser can be a fail point.

The wiring at your fuel pump relay has me curious. Once as many other areas are confirmed good (spark etc), find a safe way to make fuel pump run then see if engine starts. e.g. there is likely a fuel pump bypass or similar method shown in Bentley. Were it me, I'd be curious if I could make the fuel pump run "all the time" by closing the circuit at wires to switch in AFM.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magonlia wrote:
This is making me think the ECU is bad?


The ECU is the most dependable part of the system and very seldom goes bad.

Have you checked your fuel injection grounds yet? They are hidden under the #3 manifold runner and are known for causing problems.
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