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Silverghost500 Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018 Posts: 1069 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:30 am Post subject: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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When I reassemble the Subaru EJ 2.5 engine I know one component I need to decide on will be the coolant manifold. Most conversions have the coolant manifold reversed, while others have not.
-What are the pros and cons of having a reversed manifold vs. non-reversed?
-What are the parts requirements for the reversed vs. non-reversed? _________________ 1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion in-progress
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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candyman Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 2694 Location: Missoula MT
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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I did not reverse and have no issues. I think people do the reverse for a cleaner install. My conversion was a budget conversion so I saved some cash on the manifold and put towards other components. Its a personal choice which direction you choose |
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wesitarz Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012 Posts: 1477 Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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You need enough 1.5 inch hose to run to the pipes for the non-reversed. I use marine exhaust hose. You will have a bend off the 1.5 inch end of the coolant manifold to deal with. It's a short straight connection with the reversed. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Agreed, bends are minuses and straights are pluses.
Mr Fuji did it the logical way, and the reversed flow "defies" that logic.
That said, I haven't heard of any problems using the reverse coolant flow and there are perhaps thousands out there.
... and pushing 5,000 lb bricks, a duty-cycle that Mr Fuji never imagined.
Even so, it would be interesting to see data showing left.vs.right Cyl head temps while climbing a mtn pass on a 100F summer day during the time the high-speed fan comes on. Actual instrumentation on normal and reversed, on the same mtn pass, same speed, same day, would be interesting.
When headgaskets go bad..... is it random, or is the "hot side" more likely? I don't know which is the hot side. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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candyman wrote: |
I did not reverse and have no issues. I think people do the reverse for a cleaner install. My conversion was a budget conversion so I saved some cash on the manifold and put towards other components. Its a personal choice which direction you choose |
Same here. I got a local muffler shop to bend up some 'stainless' pipe and added three pieces of hose to join things up.
No leaks, no issues. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Silverghost500 Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018 Posts: 1069 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Last night I found these Burley coolant pipes that I does away with the need to have a reverse coolant manifold.
https://burleymotorsports.net/product/subaru-conversion-coolant-pipe-perimeter-pipe-combo-pack/
Jake, it sounds like you have a similar setup to the Burley pipes with the muffler shop mandrel bend pipes you're running. You're also running a Shiel's water pump/thermostat spacer with your setup, correct?
What about the temp sensors? Would I need to drill and tap a spot on the existing manifold for a VW sensor to drive the Vanagon temp gauge? Or, will the Vanagon's temp gage be driven by Jeff's wiring harness modification? _________________ 1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion in-progress
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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i didn't do the reversed one in mine either, you can kind of see it here
my reasons were purely selfish, i had just repaired the "eye lids" that secure the cooling pipes to the firewall
the reversed manifold as i recall requires you to hack out a big section of the firewall and cut your cooling pipes back to shove the hose on. after making that panel, it was non negotiable for me to do that, and i had a set of NOS pipes i used
so, i made my own pipes. here is a shot when i was mocking stiff out
_________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Silverghost500 Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018 Posts: 1069 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Skills, I agree. If I'd put that kind of metal work in that area I'd have a hard time with having to hack it out.
The metal pipes look great. How did you fasten them to the chassis? Do you have any transient heat into them from the exhaust system, or is that kind of a moot point?
P.S. I really like the air intake, and side sheetmetal plate you've got there! _________________ 1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion in-progress
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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thanks
the pipes have a bracket to the frame rail, and the top pipe bolts to that. the lower pipe bolts to the center of that bracket so basically they are joined in a way that you can easily remove them
the upper pipe that wraps around has one more bracket that supports it and that is bolted to a pre existing hole on the inner support by the license plate door.
if you look at the top pic in my last post just under the intake tube (which i am thinking about having wrinkle coated) you can just about see the side of the muffler which is tucked by the frame rail.
camera angle looks like it's poking into the bay a bit, but the reality is it's on the outer edge of the frame rail
i have no heat issues with my exhaust system
i couldn't bring myself to use a commercially available exhaust system because i didn't like them. about impossible to even change a belt with that stupid shield hanging off the timing covers, which i have seen that shield shatter the covers and toss plastic into the timing belt....no thanks
if you look at this photo (taken at a diner with a bunch of neon) you can see the muffler tucked up under the rear 1/4
i could have tucked it up higher, but i would have either had a crazy looking 'pigtail' tail pipe or would have had to notch the rear valance. here again, i just put a ton of work into the valance so that was another non negotiable deal.
i don't think i have a photo of the completed exhaust system, but it basically looks like this in terms of routing. i have a cheater flowmaster cat in there as well
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/dBbMkS0DZ4...TZOqHaQdso _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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davideric9 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009 Posts: 998 Location: Oakland CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Down side to the reversed coolant manifold (for SVX EG33 at least) is the crowded area and interference with the hose going to the throttle body.
_________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012) |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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The EJ22 in my yard was not reversed. Our reasoning -- The simple answer was this: If (driver) was out in the middle of nowhere, and needed that part, what would be more likely -- to find a reversed manifold just lying around, or a junk yard with the stock one?
So, simple answer, regardless of which engine you have -- what place close to nowhere would have the exact thing you need. BoneYard says: Stock.
This actually applies to a similar question -- What if the ej22 blows, and the option to go with an ej25 was the only answer? Ya, the harness would need work, but the other parts and layout wouldn't need to be changed very much. I don't think I figured out if the adapter plate would work going from the ej22 to an ej25 tho.. Probably not thinking about it enough at that time. _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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I have the reverse manifold and like the setup. We have been running the conversion for about a dozen years at this point. |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Silverghost500 wrote: |
Last night I found these Burley coolant pipes that I does away with the need to have a reverse coolant manifold.
https://burleymotorsports.net/product/subaru-conversion-coolant-pipe-perimeter-pipe-combo-pack/
Jake, it sounds like you have a similar setup to the Burley pipes with the muffler shop mandrel bend pipes you're running. You're also running a Shiel's water pump/thermostat spacer with your setup, correct?
What about the temp sensors? Would I need to drill and tap a spot on the existing manifold for a VW sensor to drive the Vanagon temp gauge? Or, will the Vanagon's temp gage be driven by Jeff's wiring harness modification? |
I went around the other way and up and over the transaxle but yes, those pipes look to be a really good solution. Burley wasn't doing SubaruVanagon stuff when I did my conversion or I might have gone that route.
Tom's thermostat housing was the icing on the cake for me. I understand that Tom's not making them any more but I'm puzzled that nobody (Burley? RMW?) has stepped in to fill that gap. Its a simple piece, really.
I can't speak for Jeff but I drilled and tapped my coolant manifold for the VW temp sender. Super easy: 9mm bit and a 10 x 1.0 tap = done. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Silverghost500 Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018 Posts: 1069 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Thanks for all the information on your setups! I saw another recent post on conversions and coolant flow from the heater circuits to the thermostat. Looks like there's a couple different ways to do that.
Seems like either the Burley pipe or Skills configuration would be a good way for keeping the coolant manifold in it's original configuration. I also saw a video from Mick @ Busaru where he's using the original configuration using a series of hoses and pipes.
BTW the thermostat adapter by Tom, is he still making them? If not, has anyone seen if he'd send whatever CAD files or diagrams needed to make them again?
@Skills-I'd like to see some pics from the underside of your conversion's exhaust system! What catalytic converter did you used? _________________ 1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion in-progress
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Got a reply from Tom last week, he indicated his care for family has taken him out of the biz, so no, he is not doing the part (or testing harnesses). I have no reply to the direct question we want to know.. if he is willing to have someone else take up that work and sell the t-stat feedback housing.
At this point, all I could do would be to go take that part out of the bus it is in now to measure, etc. Not something I'd do lightly. I would much rather have Tom keep the say if or whom he would want to have doing his thing in his stead. _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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I'm sorry for Tom's family situation, but there's more than one way to skin a fish,
the need for the thermostat extension is because the vanagon has a closed is closed heater control valve.
when the OEM heater valve is closed (summer) the T-stat return line from the heater core is deadheaded and doesn't allow the T-stat to get a constant temperature 'sample' of the engine coolant..
you can do this either by adding the additional line like Tom's piece does
or by replacing the front heater valve with a "Bypass" heater valve..
these are available in electric or cable operated.
this should also eliminate the core giving you hot feet in the summer.. which consequently a non-closing valve isn't bad for the Subaru T-stat.
some may go for the free/easy method of leaving the rear heater installed and it's valve open.. that will in effect loop coolant back continuously to the T-stat
but if it's ever shut off or removed and eliminated.. then an unexpected overheat situation can very likely happen.
I like this one..
https://www.oldairproducts.com/product/heater-valve-kit-50-1555
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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or....
run a water pump from an automatic forester that has the nipple right where the t stat is and/or run a turbo water pump with multiple fittings and cap off the one's you don't need.
i may have a old tom shiels t stat adapter i never used if anyone wants some measurements to have one made up.
Tom stopped doing stuff some years ago, he did my harness for my 70 bus which i had nothing but issues with and he was not really helpful. i begged jeff robenolt to help me waving piles of money at him. it was around that time 2012-13 i found out his wife wasn't doing well. jeff spent like 2-3 hours on the phone with me, free of charge despite my best efforts to pay him and now has done about 15 harnesses for me.
fwiw, Tom has to be DEEP into his 70's by now, if not older. i can understand not wanting to fool with the public at large anymore _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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coqcitywesty Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2018 Posts: 401 Location: Coquitlam, BC
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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I too reached out to Tom S. last week after spending some time on his website (which is still active but does not appear to have been updated for some time http://subaruvanagon.com/tom/ts_conversion.htm ). He did respond as noted above in that he is not taking any orders for parts at this time. He has developed some innovative solution over the years, so it would great for the community if someone were able come to some arrangement with him to 're-market' his designs. _________________ 1991 Westfalia EJ251, 1972 Volvo 1800 ES |
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wesitarz Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012 Posts: 1477 Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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If you are going to spend that money on Burley pipes and a bypass valve up front, why not just get a Smallcar reversed manifold and be done with it? Put a new coolant temp sensor in a non-reversed because it will be buried facing the back of the engine. With that bypass valve up front I think you will still be feathering your heat in a cold climate. The rear heater delete feedback loop doesn't work well in cold climates. Get the extra nipple water pump or get the Smallcar reversed setup,or put a crossover between the heater lines at back of engine would be my choices. |
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skemems Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2017 Posts: 200 Location: Portland
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Subi Swaps-To Reverse Coolant Manifold or Not |
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Once nice aspect of the burley coolant option is the metal coolant line to the thermostat. Small car uses curved hose to coolant pipe. |
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