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Solar panel wiring
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pemz0r
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
pemz0r wrote:
drill a hole big enough for my wires from the outside to the inside. I have two wires from the solar panel


Those wires look huge. Shocked

Does anyone know the principle re:

    Two wires from the Solar panel to the controller
    .vs.
    One wire and chassis ground?


Two wires are from the solar panel kit, 10AWG each, but then there's a cable that has 8 wires in it for my light bar and LED lights that are mounted to the side and the rear. I wanted to have one clean wiring loom. Here is the build thread if you wanted to see the setup.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=748810&highlight=
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

6 wires for the light bar? Why so many? Does it have 5 different levels of intensity depending on which LEDs are turned on?
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

6 wires for the light bar? Why so many? Does it have 5 different levels of intensity depending on which LEDs are turned on?
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pemz0r
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

DuncanS wrote:
6 wires for the light bar? Why so many? Does it have 5 different levels of intensity depending on which LEDs are turned on?


The light bar is a Bluetooth RGB Bar. You can change the intensity and colors.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKaaZQalP0-/ Click to go to the second image
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

That is a SERIOUS amount of wires to deal with.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That taxes my "no-hill-for-a-climber" approach to custom stuff. Luckily, in boat building, nothing can be fitted without some modification, so..................however, still quite a challenge.

Very nice bar. Do you use the color effect much? Two fixed buttons and a phone app. This is a real 21st century piece of gear.

Duncan
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ragnarhairybreeks
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Sodo,

I think, but I can’t find the documentation, but I think that MPPT controllers at least, like to have the pv plus and minus attached directly to controller rather than just the pv plus and using the common neg return of the chassis.

I wish I could find the proof Smile

Alistair


Sodo wrote:
pemz0r wrote:
drill a hole big enough for my wires from the outside to the inside. I have two wires from the solar panel


Those wires look huge. Shocked

Does anyone know the principle re:

    Two wires from the Solar panel to the controller
    .vs.
    One wire and chassis ground?

_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com
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fxr
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

ragnarhairybreeks wrote:
Sodo,

I think, but I can’t find the documentation, but I think that MPPT controllers at least, like to have the pv plus and minus attached directly to controller rather than just the pv plus and using the common neg return of the chassis.

I wish I could find the proof Smile

That common neg is probably lower resistance than the 10-15 ft of wire that might otherwise be necessary.

So an old wives' tale, sorry.
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Vespa GTS 300
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Steve M.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

DuncanS wrote:
That is a SERIOUS amount of wires to deal with.

Duncan


You need to crimp terminals on a cable with 150 wires in it and put them all in the right hole on a Canon plug! Laughing

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is so old tech now I could not find a picture of 150 wire canon plug.
Things have progressed to the point now that 20 yrs. ago systems on military aircraft that they do not use wires anymore and use shielded conduits to shoot radio waves back and forth to the components because electricity is just too slow! I can't even imagine what they are using today.
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Last edited by Steve M. on Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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ragnarhairybreeks
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

fxr wrote:
ragnarhairybreeks wrote:
Sodo,

I think, but I can’t find the documentation, but I think that MPPT controllers at least, like to have the pv plus and minus attached directly to controller rather than just the pv plus and using the common neg return of the chassis.

I wish I could find the proof Smile

That common neg is probably lower resistance than the 10-15 ft of wire that might otherwise be necessary.

So an old wives' tale, sorry.


Jim,

Wasn’t that in particular that was nagging me. Was something else about the PV NEG return in MPPT controllers that is lost in my mind somewhere. But I can’t retrieve it. All I can do is quote this from victron MPPT manual
Second to last bullet point. I’m afraid it might just confuse issue more.
Anyway, it’s still bugging me Smile

“ 3.2 Grounding
● Battery grounding: the charger can be installed in a positive or negative grounded system.
Note: apply a single ground connection (preferably close to the battery) to prevent malfunctioning of the system.
● Chassis grounding: A separate earth path for the chassis ground is permitted because it is isolated from the positive and negative terminal.
● The USA National Electrical Code (NEC) requires the use of an external ground fault protection device (GFPD). These MPPT chargers do not have internal ground fault protection. The system electrical negative should be bonded through a GFPD to earth ground at one (and only one) location.
● The charger must not be connected with grounded PV arrays (one ground connection only)
● The plus and minus of the PV array should not be grounded. Ground the frame of the PV panels to reduce the impact of lightning.
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com
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medicmaniac
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Robw_z wrote:
There is a bulkhead (panel you need to drill through) between the empty space behind the air vent and the cabin.

I removed the vent, and drilled through the bulkhead (the drill was pointed towards the front of the van). The wire then comes out under the bench seat, where my house battery is.

It’s been 10 years no problems. Be sure to leave slack in the wires behind the vent, so any water that trails along wire will drip off at it’s lowest point and not into the cabin.

-Rob


Rob,

This is what I needed to know. I drilled a ton of holes for my
Diesel heater…kinda weary of doing this again. Was just asking this question in case there was any options besides drilling once I route into the air vent. I like the vanagon life solar mpv panels, but soo expensive just for looks.

My set up is a 89 Tin top weekender. I have a 1000 jackery, and 175 watt flexible solar panel. Went with the jackery because my van only has storage under the seat, no additional cabinets in the back. Plus jackery easily removable if something happens in the house.
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pemz0r
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

DuncanS wrote:
That is a SERIOUS amount of wires to deal with.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That taxes my "no-hill-for-a-climber" approach to custom stuff. Luckily, in boat building, nothing can be fitted without some modification, so..................however, still quite a challenge.

Very nice bar. Do you use the color effect much? Two fixed buttons and a phone app. This is a real 21st century piece of gear.

Duncan


Sometimes I mess with the colors.. That's the reason why I ordered the custom wire, to clean up the mess of wires and have the correct length to go from the light bar to the back of the van and back to the passenger seat. I also incorporated a stock switch to turn in on.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:10 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Does your 8 wire bundle go directly from inside the car to inside the light bar for a clean install or did you feel the need for a plug so the bar could be removed? If I get one, I think the white only wires would be the clean ones and I'd have a waterproof socket mounted in the bar so I could run a wire through the vent window if I wanted to play with colors. I'm not the kinna guy to flash colors to music.

Might be fun to have a 400' capability remote so when you approach the car in a lot at night you could unlock the doors and have the blue or whatever go on to show the way.

D
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fxr
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

ragnarhairybreeks wrote:
fxr wrote:
ragnarhairybreeks wrote:
Sodo,

I think, but I can’t find the documentation, but I think that MPPT controllers at least, like to have the pv plus and minus attached directly to controller rather than just the pv plus and using the common neg return of the chassis.

I wish I could find the proof Smile

That common neg is probably lower resistance than the 10-15 ft of wire that might otherwise be necessary.

So an old wives' tale, sorry.


Jim,

Wasn’t that in particular that was nagging me. Was something else about the PV NEG return in MPPT controllers that is lost in my mind somewhere. But I can’t retrieve it. All I can do is quote this from victron MPPT manual
Second to last bullet point. I’m afraid it might just confuse issue more.
Anyway, it’s still bugging me Smile

“ 3.2 Grounding
● Battery grounding: the charger can be installed in a positive or negative grounded system.
Note: apply a single ground connection (preferably close to the battery) to prevent malfunctioning of the system.
● Chassis grounding: A separate earth path for the chassis ground is permitted because it is isolated from the positive and negative terminal.
● The USA National Electrical Code (NEC) requires the use of an external ground fault protection device (GFPD). These MPPT chargers do not have internal ground fault protection. The system electrical negative should be bonded through a GFPD to earth ground at one (and only one) location.
● The charger must not be connected with grounded PV arrays (one ground connection only)
● The plus and minus of the PV array should not be grounded. Ground the frame of the PV panels to reduce the impact of lightning.

That's talking about grounding. In our vans, there'll only be one ground if and when shore power is connected. The rationale of only having one ground is to protect the circuits from voltage spikes induced by lightening etc - the MPPT controllers aren't just for RVs and boats, they get used for buildings too.

Our van's chassis isn't ground as such, though we often use the word ground to mean the negative battery supply.
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

"Our van's chassis isn't ground as such, though we often use the word ground to mean the negative battery supply".

This is the super important sentence for this and another recent topic about shore power and "grounding". https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683623&highlight=
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SGE-Joker
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

I have an '84 Joker made for the German market, living in the US. The hook-ups and wiring are for 240 V. I don't plan to rewire for 110. If I got a solar panel, could I re-use the existing wiring somehow? I guess it would be even worse if it's operating at 12V? So do the "solar" plug-in hook-ups have to connect to new wiring? If it's just running new wire from the hook-up through a controller to the battery under the driver's seat, that doesn't seem like too much trouble, and I could just ignore the old 240V wiring.
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Wires are like roads or hoses. They don't care who drives on them and hoses don't care what goes through them. 220 Euro wires will handle 110 except they may be smaller--perhaps too small. Compare them with what's needed for 110.

Remember volts x amps is like the pressure and volume of flow in a hose. As the pressure goes up, the volume can stay the same with a smaller hose. As the voltage goes up, the amps go down to have the same wattage/volume. So a smaller wire at a high voltage can't necessarily carry the amperage to get the same wattage as the voltage is decreased.

Duncan
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SGE-Joker
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

> except they may be smaller--perhaps too small

That was sort of the point of the question. Same wattage, lower voltage implies higher current, which dissipates more heat in wires of the same resistance, so it needs bigger wires or risks overheating them, doesn't it? I think I know the answer, but I'm no electrician, and I've never messed with the wiring in my van. I figure others have already figured all this out, probably better than I would.

What options are available? Fuses/circuit breakers to let me know when I'm drawing too much power? What are the fuses on shore power lines in a 220 volt Westy rated at? How does it compare with what a solar panel would deliver? Could I (safely) charge a battery through the shore power circuit? Is there some way to regulate the current? How about a transformer?
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Current draw is regulated by the load the device needs to operate. So there is no way to regulate current. But there is a need to have the appropriate size wires. The problem with undersized wires is they prevent the device from having all the "juice" it needs through resistance, which as you state translates into heat. Often the heat isn't important, but limiting the draw capability is. This is why corroded grounds can be so devastating to a T3. Or why pitted electric window switch contacts and corroded wire terminals make the PS window slow or not work at all.

A quick look at Bentley will show there are different sized wires for everything. This can give you a clue as to how much current the device being fed requires. A .5 wire, almost nothing. A 4, quite a bit.

Duncan
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richtrethewey
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is how I brought the solar wiring into my van, near the left tail light I formed a drip loop and drilled a small hole under the rear storage cabinet and brought the wires forward from there to my charge controller…
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richtrethewey
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar panel wiring Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is how I brought the solar wiring into my van, near the left tail light I formed a drip loop and drilled a small hole under the rear storage cabinet and brought the wires forward from there to my charge controller…
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