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My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions…
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Essthreetee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

This car just recently delivered to us from Tacoma. It is now going to be a California resident…so I don’t know a lot about it but here is what I do know (was told). It has all new interior, a 2110 engine with about 3000 miles on it, and a “Super Street” transmission. (I have never heard of this and am curious if this is correct).

So, here is my first question…I am sure there will be more…my reverse lockout does not work. I have pulled the hockey stick to make sure the plate was correct and it is, but I do not have to push down to get reverse….all I have to do is simply go to the left and down. Which makes down shifting a little nerve racking for my wife.

The shifter was rebuilt by a reputable service company (I have the paperwork that came with the car from the sale) Is there something I can check? If it has the stock hockey stick (I assume) would it need to be changed to match the replaced transmission? (How would I tell).


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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

It looks like an odd mix of parts for that car. I'd double check the hockey stick, and see if it's drilled on the bottom in the correct spot. Verify using Bentley that the plate under the shifter is correctly in place. I only say that, as if it's got the wrong plate, or it's upside down, you won't get a reverse lock out. However, if you're getting reverse, I'd say it's the plate end of things, versus the hockey stick.

What I meant about the odd mix of parts, is that it has Disc brake spindles on the front (most likely 66 to 71 parts) and an IRS rear sub frame (69 thru 73) in the rear, as evidenced by the rear engine hanger bar and the lack of rear frame horns. My own 65 Notch is like this, using 70 parts on both ends. Those parts make it a great cruiser, as it rides real nice, and stops good too.

Nice little project car, and it'll just take a little fiddling around to sort everything out. But once you do, it'll be an enjoyable car. Cool
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Essthreetee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
It looks like an odd mix of parts for that car. I'd double check the hockey stick, and see if it's drilled on the bottom in the correct spot. Verify using Bentley that the plate under the shifter is correctly in place. I only say that, as if it's got the wrong plate, or it's upside down, you won't get a reverse lock out. However, if you're getting reverse, I'd say it's the plate end of things, versus the hockey stick.

What I meant about the odd mix of parts, is that it has Disc brake spindles on the front (most likely 66 to 71 parts) and an IRS rear sub frame (69 thru 73) in the rear, as evidenced by the rear engine hanger bar and the lack of rear frame horns. My own 65 Notch is like this, using 70 parts on both ends. Those parts make it a great cruiser, as it rides real nice, and stops good too.

Nice little project car, and it'll just take a little fiddling around to sort everything out. But once you do, it'll be an enjoyable car. Cool


OK. Wow. You just jumped WAY over my head in understanding. I am fairly mechanically inclined and definitely NOT afraid to get into things….but I have no idea what you are talking about. I understand about the plate. It seems to match the videos i watched. I am getting reverse, just not the lockout.

What would I be looking for on the bottoms of the hockey stick to tell if it is drilled correctly?

And as for the rear end…I know that the engine and trans had been swapped, but would that have to also have something else to have been done to do so? Is there something I should be checking with regards to that?

Sorry for the ignorant questions. I am brand new to type 3 and this car is brand new to us. It is my wife’s dream car (a Notchback) and I just want to make her as comfy in it as possible.

Thanks
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

To add to what Bob said:

A 1964 (or 1965) Notchback would have had a swing axle rear end and 4 wheel drum brakes on wide 5 wheels. The PO has converted the rear to IRS and converted the front to disc brakes. Done correctly - they're both worthwhile upgrades.

Terms like "Super Street" and "ProStreet" are used loosely by different shops - they won't tell you what has been done with the transmission. You'd have to get that information from the PO (if they had it built) or the builder if you can get that information.

Do you know what brand or style shifter is in the car? If you can get through all of the gears and reverse feels a little off - I suspect the shifter or its position on the tunnel. The hockey stick changed in May 1964 - if you put the later one in an early car - you'd only have 1st and 2nd gear. My car is an April build and my transmission builder used a late Type 3 hockey stick and I had to change it.

A few quick observations:

The engine looks like a Type 1 with Type 3 tins. It has a Type 1 dipstick on the engine but not the Type 3 oil fill tube/dipstick on the lower right. How do you get oil into the engine?

The builder appears to have used Type 1 spark plug wires (they're shorter) - the 2/4 side wires don't typically run across the tin - they go around the side of the carburetor on the right. There's a big hole in the lower end of the right side tin - that's for an ignition wire holder.

The coil normally faces the other direction.

I suggest removing the fuel filter from the engine bay and relocating it to the space between where it exits the pan and goes into the engine tin behind the driver's side rear tire. It'll also help the fuel pump by filtering the fuel before it gets to the pump.

Do you know if the engine has a thermostat and flaps in the fan shroud?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Ataraxia, I would think you would fill the engine oil through the breather tower by taking out the plastic plug.

It almost looks like a bus engine block as it doesn’t have the weird adapter plate for the engine hanger.

I was looking, it could be the lighting, but it looks like it has later model gauges as the have the black faces vs earlier light gray faces.

I would be interested to see what the chassis number is under the back seat. They could have swapped the parts but in wondering if they did a whole chassis swap.

Also, it looks like they used the original swing axle engine mount along with putting in the IRS style engine mounts. More pictures of that would be interesting.

Like others said you have a scramble of different parts but you have the more desirable body style/ year on a better riding, handling and stopping chassis. So it may not be original necessarily but it is a nice combination.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Just something else to think about. If it's got a 2110 then that exhaust is choking it. with that sized motor I would think you'd need to run at least a 1 5/8 exhaust and those don't look like aftermarket heater boxes and the exhaust tip looks like the tri-mil setup.
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Ceckert64 wrote:
Ataraxia, I would think you would fill the engine oil through the breather tower by taking out the plastic plug.

It almost looks like a bus engine block as it doesn’t have the weird adapter plate for the engine hanger.

I would be interested to see what the chassis number is under the back seat. They could have swapped the parts but in wondering if they did a whole chassis swap. .


If the breather is installed completely - putting oil in it is going to be a real hassle with the baffles installed. I'm guessing they're not but still would be good to know.

Engine looks like a universal case.

Great point about the pan swap - does the number at the front apron match the number stamped on the tunnel under the back seat?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
Ceckert64 wrote:
Ataraxia, I would think you would fill the engine oil through the breather tower by taking out the plastic plug.

It almost looks like a bus engine block as it doesn’t have the weird adapter plate for the engine hanger.

I would be interested to see what the chassis number is under the back seat. They could have swapped the parts but in wondering if they did a whole chassis swap. .


If the breather is installed completely - putting oil in it is going to be a real hassle with the baffles installed. I'm guessing they're not but still would be good to know.

Engine looks like a universal case.

Great point about the pan swap - does the number at the front apron match the number stamped on the tunnel under the back seat?


It's possible that it had a later bug case used for the engine build, as I have 73 bug engine sitting under my TIG table dressed up as a type 3 engine, complete with an engine hanger bar. On it I used a bug breather box with a t-3 road draft tube welded to it so I can add oil by screwing the cap on/off. I used a longer t-1 dip stick to read the oil level.

It's not a universal case, as it would have a provision for the type 3 dipstick tube/oil fill tube, or a block off plate in that location. My 65 Notch has a universal case with a t-3 filler tube bolted in place, with the t-1 dipstick tube welded shut (I did that as I didn't have a factory aluminum plug for the dip stick).

I was wondering if it had gotten a pan swap (possibly to replace rusted floor pans), or if they used the original pan, and just swapped the beam and rear subframe (to keep the correct VIN number as I did on my old 71 Notch).
Yes, does the number under the rear seat match the under hood number on the riveted aluminum plate? That'll help us help you.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Good catch, Bob. I didn't see the bottom right of the engine in the pics the first time through - just noticed that the dipstick tube was missing.

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Essthreetee
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Ok. I am lost….but very willing to learn. I can take hood pictures of anything, just need to know what all pictures are needed to help me out in the right direction.

I was told that the engine is a 2110. And that it has about 3k miles on it (same with tranny).

You guys have me concerned with what needs to be done and/or what has been done.

Now i know how some of my students feel the first time I introduce some new math topic that they have never heard of…..WHAT?!? Laughing
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Essthreetee
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Ok. So stamp on chassis matches stamp under hood.

And here are some more pictures of engine and underneath as well.

I was told the new exhaust was good for engines up to 140hp and this one is supposed to have 130hp.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

One thing you've probably noticed - there are a lot of people in this forum who can pick out the 'non-stock' things on a car for its given model year. There are several people here who have decades of experience with this platform and there are some who've learned a lot in a short time - that's good if you want to know what's not 'technically' correct and when you need to know what needs to be addressed based on your description and how it appears.

I think it can be split into a couple of categories:

1. Things to review to make sure it works correctly (engine/transmission/brakes)

As Bob (Bobnotch) and Aiden (Ceckert64) pointed out - your engine is a Type 2 converted to work on a Type 3. The Type 3 normally has a dipstick and oil fill accessible from the rear panel and it does not have a dipstick in the middle of the engine (as yours does). This isn't really an issue with the exception of refilling the oil - which you'll be doing through the oil breather. This breather normally has a baffle, a washer, a plastic baffle (looks like a tiny plastic ChoreBoy scrubber) - I'm guessing yours doesn't have that if it's being used as an oil fill. If it does - you'll have to take that out to refill the oil and then put it back. Not a big deal - but definitely more steps.

Here's a diagram of both the oil breather and the Type 3 oil fill/dipstick set up:
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Jason (lawnninja) brings up a good point - if your engine really is a 2110 - the exhaust looks small for that engine size. Measure the width of one of the pipes coming off the heads and post that up. A 2110 should have a bigger exhaust to breathe properly - if the heat exchangers are stock - it's not breathing properly. A 2110 should have (at least) an exhaust that's 1 5/8", IMO.

(EDIT): Looks like the two VINs match so not a pan swap - just the rear subframe. Good that they both match! Looks like they swapped the subframes - IRS is a smoother ride (I just finished my IRS conversion). It'd be interesting to see how the lower rear engine hangers were welded to the body (the bar that goes across the rear of the engine and attaches to the side inside the engine bay).

Can you get pictures of the rear trunk area - especially the lower area where the trunk lid meets the car on the right.


2. Things to know - depending on how correct you want it to look (appearance items)

Secondary to the things above - but good to know if you decide to change them later.
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Essthreetee
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Here is what I have found out…
The exhaust looks like it is right at 1-5/8” (using my eye and tape measure…I need to go buy some calipers).

I pulled the plastic plug and see where the oil will be filled. There I are hoses that go to another box and then back to the valve covers (?).

I have ordered type 3 spark plug wires but cannot seem to find an image that shows the correct routing (could someone please direct me to that? Honest I have tried looking).

I am not exactly sure what pictures you want of the lower right side…the outside or the inside of the engine bay?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Essthreetee wrote:
Ok. So stamp on chassis matches stamp under hood.

And here are some more pictures of engine and underneath as well.

I was told the new exhaust was good for engines up to 140hp and this one is supposed to have 130hp.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This is good that BOTH numbers match, as the pan number is the VIN for the car (some states don't count the riveted tag, but some do). It tells us that the front beam came from at least a 66 T-3, and the rear subframe came from a 69 thru 73 T-3. This is good because those suspension parts (including brakes) are easier to replace than the early stuff you'd normally find on your car.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Essthreetee wrote:
Here is what I have found out…
The exhaust looks like it is right at 1-5/8” (using my eye and tape measure…I need to go buy some calipers).

I pulled the plastic plug and see where the oil will be filled. There I are hoses that go to another box and then back to the valve covers (?).

I have ordered type 3 spark plug wires but cannot seem to find an image that shows the correct routing (could someone please direct me to that? Honest I have tried looking).

I am not exactly sure what pictures you want of the lower right side…the outside or the inside of the engine bay?


The hoses that go to the valve covers are vents from the heads to the breather box - common on larger engines.

I was hoping to see how the rear engine hanger is installed (whether they welded it to the body or installed the stock hangers) - and what happened to the hole where the oil fill/dipstick should be (if it was closed up, etc.).

My engine - for wire routing reference - your engine has a later/larger breather and a support for the wires built in:
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Now that I think about it - I wonder if they flipped the coil around so they didn't get zapped while adjusting the left carburetor...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

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A question for Ataraxia
This may sound like a stupid question, but is that a screw-in Oil pressure gauge and sensor, instead of a Pressure sensor in your pic? I can see the value of the sensor, but would think it might have more value by the dash.
Just wondering.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Ossipon wrote:
A question for Ataraxia
This may sound like a stupid question, but is that a screw-in Oil pressure gauge and sensor, instead of a Pressure sensor in your pic? I can see the value of the sensor, but would think it might have more value by the dash.
Just wondering.


It's a gauge only - the OG switch/dash light is connected - the gauge is there while I'm tuning my engine. Once I'm satisfied with the engine tune - I'll connect the accessory gauge that's mounted under the dash and remove the gauge on the engine.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Any time i have seen the reverse lockout quit working it meant the shifter bushing was gone.

Pull out the shifter - two bolts, comes out straight up.

There should be a plastic ring around the shift rod that runs from the shifter rearwards to the trans.
It fits in a ring attached to the tunnel - there's a groove and two rings that hold it in place.
What happens is it gets neglected, - or it's a crappy aftermarket part - and it cracks apart and falls into the tunnel.

When that ring is gone, your shifting becomes imprecise enough that the reverse lockout doesn't work anymore.

A cheap part, but some work to install..

Is it there?
Show a pic.

Have fun!


PS.
Best be gearing up to work on that car if you pan on keeping it and driving it.
Not only is it 50+ years old.
Some amateur "mechanics" have obviously been busy..
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Any time i have seen the reverse lockout quit working it meant the shifter bushing was gone.

Pull out the shifter - two bolts, comes out straight up.

There should be a plastic ring around the shift rod that runs from the shifter rearwards to the trans.
It fits in a ring attached to the tunnel - there's a groove and two rings that hold it in place.
What happens is it gets neglected, - or it's a crappy aftermarket part - and it cracks apart and falls into the tunnel.

When that ring is gone, your shifting becomes imprecise enough that the reverse lockout doesn't work anymore.

A cheap part, but some work to install..

Is it there?
Show a pic.

Have fun!


PS.
Best be gearing up to work on that car if you pan on keeping it and driving it.
Not only is it 50+ years old.
Some amateur "mechanics" have obviously been busy..

I will check the bushing this weekend. I think I have a good idea of the one you are referring to.

This is planning on being a “lifer” car for my wife, so yea. I plan on working on it and getting everything I can done correctly. I am not afraid of getting my hands dirty. I LOVE learning new things. I am very mechanically inclined, just ignorant/inexperienced. I have documents from “reputable” vw shops that did most of the big work. Hopefully it is not shade tree mechanic stuff.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

To Clatter's point: Because so many things are changed on your car - you will not be able to follow a blue Bentley to make a repair.

This car was originally 6volt and now appears to be 12volt. Do the wipers work? The wiper motor is usually the one thing that isn't changed because it's a hassle to swap the wiper motor.

Do the rear fenders have the holes in them for the reflectors that are missing?
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