Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Franco1962
Samba Member


Joined: October 23, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Mass
Franco1962 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:33 am    Post subject: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

HI All,
I just installed a new set of 5x130 adapters and the Fuchs style Empi 5 lug wheels on my 1979 Vert. I love the look but now the car shimmies quite a bit when I brake. I still have drums all the way around and it did not do it before installing the new wheels and tires. I know its the new package as I just drove it about 40 miles this morning with no issues. Could out if balance tires make that happen? What about wheel bearings now that the wheels are pushed out a little more than the steel wheels it had on it (15"x5.5")? It not a slight shake but a pronounced one.
Thanks for any ideas.
Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Starbucket
Samba Member


Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4007
Location: WA
Starbucket is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Have you jacked the front up and spun the wheels by hand looking to see if the wheels track straight? How long has it been since you looked at the brake shoes and drums and adjusted the brakes. Wider wheels amplify suspension problems on supers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Franco1962 wrote:
Could out if balance tires make that happen?

Did you have your tires + wheels balanced?
Best way is to spin balance the tires + wheels mounted to the car... but not many places still do this. This is the best way because it balances the tire+wheel+drum+spacer on the spindle as a whole unit.

Next best way is to spin balance the tire + wheel on a spin balance machine off the car. These confirm any imbalance in the tires or wheels are compensated with wheel weights. A good machine will place weights at the inner and outer edge or the wheel compensating for balance around the spindle but also balance between the inner and outer edges of the wheel. This does nothing if your drums are out of balance.

The last way is to bubble balance the tire+wheel. This is okay as it does adjust for off center balance, but it cannot adjust for differences between the inner and outer edges.


Installing tires+wheels that have not been balanced in any way is just asking for some type of wobble or uneven tire wear.

If your bearings were already bad, the new wheels & spacer could be highlighting this. Check for any play in the front suspension. Rock the wheels from top-bottom and left-right looking for any play in the drum to spindle (bearings), ball joints or tie rod ends.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Franco1962
Samba Member


Joined: October 23, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Mass
Franco1962 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Hi Ashman,
Thanks for the reply. Mounted and spin balanced wheels before installation. No issues before new wheels. Funny that it shows up under braking but not under driving conditions. Would expect an imbalance to show under both.
Regards,
Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
MrGoodtunes
Samba Member


Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 849
Location: South Florida
MrGoodtunes is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Franco1962 wrote:
... it shows up under braking but not under driving ..


Out of balance usually shows at speeds over 40mph. Braking judder can be caused by lugs being too tight, and that includes the wide 5s and especially the lugs holding your adaptor to the drum.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Max Welton
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
Max Welton is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Over tightened lugs can warp drums or disks.

Max
_________________
1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gt1953
Samba Member


Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13843
Location: White Mountains Arizona
gt1953 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

I suspect that it is brake drums out of round which will show when braking. Being a super they have been know to shimmy do to worn front end components.
Did it do this prior to the new wheels and tires?
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.

72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold})
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Franco1962
Samba Member


Joined: October 23, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Mass
Franco1962 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies guys. All was fine before the new wheels and adapters went on. 25 mm adapters(4x130 to 5x130) lugs tightened to 90 ft/lbs. New wheels nuts tightened to 90 ft/lbs also using cross pattern and very progressively with torque wrench. Wheels spin freely as they did before. Lugs used to secure adapters are the same length as the original VW lugs to hold steel wheels on. Tires are 185/65 R15s. Driving was fine although a little rougher ride due to lower aspect ratio than the Coker's the PO put on the car (165 R15s). The car seemed to like the 165s. Perhaps things are a bit worn and the wider track is upsetting the suspension components? I'm at a loss and need to find a solution or sell a new set of wheels that have about 5 miles on them.
Thanks again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

I’m guessing you haven’t yet had a wheel alignment since installing the new spacers, wheel and tires? Before you give up and sell the wheels I’d suggest at least that. Ideally, changing the stance by using wider wheels and spacers shouldn’t impact the alignment, but I suppose it could amplify a previous incorrect alignment?


FYI, that the lug bolts used to mount the spacers were the same as the stock lug bolts is not the point. The spacers may not be the same thickness as the stock wheels making the depth the bolts enter the drums different. The threaded holes in the drums pass through to the inside and bolts that are too long can interfere with internal components. On the flip side, you don’t want bolts that are too short as you loose strength in the attachment. The bolts should be long enough to pass through the spacers and then thread all the way into the drums without sticking too far out the inside (1 or 2 threads showing should be the max).
Take off one wheel and spacer and take a measure of the depth of the threaded hole in the drum. Add this to the thickness of the spacer from the bottom of the bolt hole to the face of the spacer that mates with the drum. The sum of these two should be the same as the threaded length of your adapter lug bolts.
If you really want to check, pull one drum and mount the adapter. Measure the amount the lug bolt extended into the inside of the drum.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Franco1962
Samba Member


Joined: October 23, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Mass
Franco1962 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

I will do this Ashman. Thanks for the advice. I’ve seen so many photos of cars with these wheels on them I have to think that not everybody bought new drums and had them drilled to the 5X 130 bolt pattern.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Tvättbjörn
Samba Member


Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 1431
Location: SoCal
Tvättbjörn is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Since you are saying you had no issues before. the first step I would do is, remove the spacer and put them on a glass plate / straight surface to be sure they are straight. If you have stamped adapters they can warp a drum when being installed. You can also install your old wheels one axle at the time to pin point out if front or rear is the problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
74 Thing
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7375

74 Thing is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Spacers can throw everything out of wack. That is another area to create something that is out of balance.

First check to see that the wheels are true.

I believe that it is the spacers causing the problem though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Franco1962
Samba Member


Joined: October 23, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Mass
Franco1962 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

I would not be surprised if you guys are exactly right. Given the fact that I’ve driven the car for several months quite a bit and have not had a problem under normal driving or under breaking I would suspect that the whole package that I put together is the problem. I’m guessing that the extra weight of the wheel further out from the axle it’s causing the issue. I will inspect but I have the feeling I’m going to wind up selling the wheels on and keeping steel wheels on the car for sake of simplicity. It’s unfortunate because I really like the Fuchs style Wheels but can’t tolerate the kind of shimmying after trying to stop from any considerable speed.
I’ll inspect further and report if I find anything of value to the group.
Thanks again,
Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Your ‘79 is a Super Beetle, right?
You may want to ring the folks at Topline and ask if they have seen the problem before. They are the experts at SB front ends. I wonder if it is not just the typical SB shimmy due to worn components? If you haven’t done it yet, look up how to inspect the SB front end of worn components. If there are any worn components you should replace them. They will eventually impact stock wheels or aftermarket wheels.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Franco1962
Samba Member


Joined: October 23, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Mass
Franco1962 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

I’ve read about the SB front in shimmy but did not have it prior to installation of the new parts. I think I’m going to pull the adapters off of the front and put the steel rims back on and see what happens first. It seems to me to be a reasonable approach that I can do myself for starters. Thank you for the suggestion again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

While you have the tires off the ground, check for any play in the front suspension. It sometimes helps to have someone doing the rocking at the wheels while you observe the junctions at all the front suspension components looking for any amount of movement.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MrGoodtunes
Samba Member


Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 849
Location: South Florida
MrGoodtunes is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Moving front wheel centerline out farther than stock from steering pivot point (i.e. increasing steering "roll radius" or "scrub radius") will amplify wear and alignment anomalies, resulting in somewhere from unnoticeable driving difficulties to judder, brakes pulling right and then left, bump steer, etc.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Franco1962
Samba Member


Joined: October 23, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Mass
Franco1962 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

Well I pulled the front wheels and adapters and put the previous steel wheels on. Everything went back to normal. I think that the offset on those replica wheels is a little larger but it’s taken up by the 25 mm adapter. What I’m saying is that although the wheel may have its weight distributed slightly differently I don’t think the wheel is pushed out further from the adapter in my case. There’s about the same amount of clearance to the suspension as it was before. I was looking at an Aircooled.net video that showed the inner bushing from the torsion beam that runs to the lower ball joint and is connected to the sway bar moving in and out violently. I think before I scrap the whole project I’m going to see if those bushings need to be replaced and see what happens. I contacted a friend that repairs BMWs and he seems to think that when the suspension loads up under breaking that it will behave differently than when it’s just running down the road. He seems to feel that the car could feel fine in a straight line or around corners but braking is a whole other animal…
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
74 Thing
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7375

74 Thing is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

So you pulled the new front wheels/tires/adapters and then shimmy went away?

Did you try swapping the wheels/tires/adapters from left to right if the tires are not directional?

How were the tires/wheels balanced? Did they use a cone through the middle of the wheel? That is not the true center since the wheels are lugcentric not hubcentric. Do you also have the correct lugs for the wheels? You could take the wheel/tire/adapter/drum and spin that all up using the center of the drum as the connecting point to the balancer.

There is also old school spin the wheel/tire/brake assembly on the car and balance it all. You need to look around for a specialty tire shop in your area..https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1222229.jpg

You can also try the bead balancing in the tires. Lots are available through ebay/amazon now
https://www.innovativebalancing.com/index.php
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=503595&highlight=tire+balance

Finally, it may just be a case of the super beetle shimmy as indicated about contact Topline and replace the bushings in the front end
https://toplineparts3.com/home/contact/
https://www.aircooled.net/vw-super-beetle-shimmy-death-shake/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Floating VW
Samba Member


Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1596
Location: The South Zone
Floating VW is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Shimmy While Braking After Installing New Wheels Reply with quote

When I was in high school, I slapped a set of old Cragar rims on my bug using some 25mm wheel adapters. I had the exact symptoms you described- smooth in a straight line, but massive vibration when stepping on the brakes. That was back when I still had drums on all four corners.

You know how I cured it?

A couple days after I installed the Cragars, it rained really hard and flooded the parking lot in front of my house. The water was about 4 inches deep, and it was muddy and slimy as hell, so just for fun I did some donuts in it for a few minutes when I got home from school. Those super wide Cragars threw a rooster tail of muddy water 20 feet into the air! The next morning, when I was driving my car back to school, the shimmy was gone, and it never came back.

So what exactly did I do? I have no idea, but it worked.
_________________
"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.