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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| Frank Bassman wrote: |
I used to run dual PDSITs which are basically a miniature kadron. I had an annoying off idle stumble that would drive me nuts when I bought them. The fix was 60 idles. With 28 mm vents the mains actually became 150s or 155s. ( I don't remember) from what I have read actual kadrons require much less main than PDSITs. I do not know why.
Plugs were unbelievably clean. Great performance then. I had them re bushed and may choose to go back... but I digress.
One thing that was peculiar is that the transition slot would have been too far open had I not drilled a tiny bleed hole on the plates. I wonder if you have the opposite problem and the T slots are actually well below the plate and you have a "dead zone"... funny I had the same issue on a 450 cfm carb on 318 dodge and I took a dremel to the t slots to lengthen... problem gone.
Easiest way to know what jets you have is to buy a variety. I'd buy 50, 52, 55, 60 idles and 132 and135 mains.
Once sync is set WITH CARBS' THROTTLE STOP take em off and see if both T slots are the same.
-Frank |
Carbs were setup by a Kaddy Specialty shop and they did all the bells and whistles. Supposed to be install, synchronize, set mixture screws, and drive. |
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Chad M
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2003
Posts: 723
Location: Alberta
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| Bug53 wrote: |
Still popping and farting at easy cruise and light throttle.
Back to the drawing board. |
I had a messed up idle jet in one of my Kadrons, the nose of the jet was machined incorrectly so it wouldn’t seat properly. The result was a very rich mixture, and all sorts of imbalance that included some popping. I’d suggest at least ruling that out by applying a little magic marker to the tip of the jet and making sure it get wiped off upon reinstallation. The one of the right is what you want to see.
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Popping and farting all over? Does It have any power or drive , get up to speed? Cause if it pops and farts AND doesn’t get up to speed Or is not drivable at all. Then i get the feeling it’s not the carbs.
| Rome wrote: |
| Double-check that the spark plug wires to each side of the engine are going to their intended plugs... If 2 are crossed at the head, the engine barely accelerates. Easy to miss while installing; easy to check. |
Yes this. I spent hours once only to find that my spark plug wire had unscrewed from the plug wire end , couldn’t see it but cause all kinds of misfire. |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Runs like a boy when I get on it.
Cruising with very little pedal is where all the popping is |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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My idle jets measure out to be around 61-61.5
Have not measured the mains yet.
My number drills only go up to 61.
Larger ones are on the way. |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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I have conflicting procedures.
My supplier tells me to set the linkage with both plates slammed shut then adjust idle with one stop or the other.
They also make no mention of capping off the balance tube and NEVER use a synch gage.
What are your techniques? |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9641
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| Quote: |
| If Pig Rich means my eyes are watering like standing behind a Nitromethane top fueler then YES. |
Going to LARGER idle jets will worsen the "pigginess"! I've installed a few sets of Kads onto various engines in the past 3 decades, from a 1500 cc small-valve single-port to a 1776 dual-port and none needed an idle jet larger than 60. Usually the 55 that came with the sets worked well.
| Quote: |
| NEVER use a synch gage. |
Hmm. There are 2 different types of gauges, the "Uni-Syn" and the "snail". The Uni-Syn has the small tube in which the plastic bob goes up and down; it's been around since at least the 1960's if not even earlier. I use that style for Kads. You need to make a spacer so that the Kad center-mounted air cleaner stud does not get in the way. A very wise carb tuner and engine expert named Art Thraen told me about 25 years ago that he uses a Pringle's potato chip tube cut down and inverted that fits over the carb neck as such an adapter. What the Uni-Syn does is to indicate the air volume passing through each carb's throat when the carb is at idle. The bob rises a different amount based on the different airflow at idle. If you don't have that gauge, I've also read but never tried that you can put a foot-long hose (e.g., an old engine breather hose, garden water hose, etc.) or even a drinking straw across the carb throat and listen to the sound of the airflow with your ear. You have to do this with the engine warm so that the carbs no longer "burp" or backfire because that would be painful to your ear. A higher-pitched "hiss" indicates a faster airflow thru the carb, so that you simply adjust the two carbs (linkage disconnected!) until the hiss is approximately the same.
Setting the KAd linkage needs to also be done with the engine warm. This allows the engine to expand in width. The difference in width to a cold engine might only be one millimeter more but that's enough to force the linkage crossarm ends in relation to the carb throttle and alter the idle behavior.
I've used the original Kad linkage for 3 of my 4 installations and learned how to adjust it. On one Kad set about 20 years ago, the original style snap-on ball ends of the crossarm ends were worn so that the crossarm popped off easily, unfortunately at full throttle. This happened once while on a short trip. I took a small rubber band, folded it into an "8" to hold the end onto the throttle arm to get me home. Buying new ball ends cured that.
If the seller test-ran the carbs on his shop engine before shipping them to you and deemed them ready to run, then I'd suspect an air leak on your manifold to head connection, or misunderstanding the linkage adjustment. Ae you using the thick paper head gaskets which were probably supplied with the set, or the original engine style aluminum ones? |
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54bug
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2011
Posts: 142
Location: WashingtonDC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Hey All
Some questions measuring jets. I recall a 125 jet is actually .125 mm... A marked jet may have been drilled out, one without markings is a mystery. A numerical Drill set can be used to measure the Jet size. I measure the drill shaft that fits into the jet with my Micrometer.
If you've measured it you know what it is. Not all markings are correct, Kaddy Shack removed the jet markings on my "plug and play" jets. I've purchased jets only to find the markings didn't match the jets.
Scott |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| Rome wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If Pig Rich means my eyes are watering like standing behind a Nitromethane top fueler then YES. |
Going to LARGER idle jets will worsen the "pigginess"! I've installed a few sets of Kads onto various engines in the past 3 decades, from a 1500 cc small-valve single-port to a 1776 dual-port and none needed an idle jet larger than 60. Usually the 55 that came with the sets worked well.
| Quote: |
| NEVER use a synch gage. |
Hmm. There are 2 different types of gauges, the "Uni-Syn" and the "snail". The Uni-Syn has the small tube in which the plastic bob goes up and down; it's been around since at least the 1960's if not even earlier. I use that style for Kads. You need to make a spacer so that the Kad center-mounted air cleaner stud does not get in the way. A very wise carb tuner and engine expert named Art Thraen told me about 25 years ago that he uses a Pringle's potato chip tube cut down and inverted that fits over the carb neck as such an adapter. What the Uni-Syn does is to indicate the air volume passing through each carb's throat when the carb is at idle. The bob rises a different amount based on the different airflow at idle. If you don't have that gauge, I've also read but never tried that you can put a foot-long hose (e.g., an old engine breather hose, garden water hose, etc.) or even a drinking straw across the carb throat and listen to the sound of the airflow with your ear. You have to do this with the engine warm so that the carbs no longer "burp" or backfire because that would be painful to your ear. A higher-pitched "hiss" indicates a faster airflow thru the carb, so that you simply adjust the two carbs (linkage disconnected!) until the hiss is approximately the same.
Setting the KAd linkage needs to also be done with the engine warm. This allows the engine to expand in width. The difference in width to a cold engine might only be one millimeter more but that's enough to force the linkage crossarm ends in relation to the carb throttle and alter the idle behavior.
I've used the original Kad linkage for 3 of my 4 installations and learned how to adjust it. On one Kad set about 20 years ago, the original style snap-on ball ends of the crossarm ends were worn so that the crossarm popped off easily, unfortunately at full throttle. This happened once while on a short trip. I took a small rubber band, folded it into an "8" to hold the end onto the throttle arm to get me home. Buying new ball ends cured that.
If the seller test-ran the carbs on his shop engine before shipping them to you and deemed them ready to run, then I'd suspect an air leak on your manifold to head connection, or misunderstanding the linkage adjustment. Ae you using the thick paper head gaskets which were probably supplied with the set, or the original engine style aluminum ones? |
I’ve always been a beleiver in using the Uni-syn, I have the adapter that slips over the top of the Kads and have taken time to make sure they mate up with the top of the carbs nicely.
Originally used the thick gaskets they gave me and was convinced I had an air leak so I pulled the manifolds off, re-checked flatness, de-burred the edges of the manifolds where I thought they might be interfering with the engine tin, and used new gaskets I obtained from CIP1. They were a bit oversized and had to be trimmed. I also used an adhesive to adhere them to the manifolds so I could trim the gasket material out of the ports. They were of the thicker gray paper not the metal.
I am using the Heim joint linkage that KS sells as an upgrade.
KS tells me not to use a Uni-syn which personally made no sense to me. |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| 54bug wrote: |
Hey All
Some questions measuring jets. I recall a 125 jet is actually .125 mm... A marked jet may have been drilled out, one without markings is a mystery. A numerical Drill set can be used to measure the Jet size. I measure the drill shaft that fits into the jet with my Micrometer.
If you've measured it you know what it is. Not all markings are correct, Kaddy Shack removed the jet markings on my "plug and play" jets. I've purchased jets only to find the markings didn't match the jets.
Scott |
The number drill I used was of the measurement which gave me the conversion to a 61-61.5. I didn’t state that a size 61 drill is equal to a 61 jet. It was a size 73 drill.
After obtaining the small set of number drills I couldn’t believe how inconsistent the factory marked jets are. It’s a travesty.
The “60” I had in another car from J-bugs measured out to the mid 70’s.
They are a joke.
From this point on I will order jets small and bring them to size myself.
The real Solex jets were good but the Shit from China is just a crap shoot. |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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I am thinking something is up with one of the throttle bodies as the problem is while the carbs are in transition and between 1800-3000 at very light pedal.
It idles good and runs like a boy when I give it some pedal. I’m also told that my mixture screws should be turned only 1/2-3/4 of a turn after the final adjustments are made. |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Chad M
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2003
Posts: 723
Location: Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| 54bug wrote: |
Some questions measuring jets. I recall a 125 jet is actually .125 mm...
Scott |
Hi, I don't mean to pick, but the Solex jets are measured like this: 125 = 1.25mm, 50 = .50mm etc...
Chad. |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9462
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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If they are not synchronized, they will not run right. How are you making sure they are synch'd?
Get them matched first before you go galivanting w/ the jettings.
I have written countless times on how to get Kadrons running. There should be lots of tuning material all over SAmba. Do a little digging.
There are no carbs out there that are simpler than Kadrons. This is about as basic as can be. No chokes. All you gotta do is match the throttle plates to move the same. |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5966
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| nsracing wrote: |
If they are not synchronized, they will not run right. How are you making sure they are synch'd?
Get them matched first before you go galivanting w/ the jettings.
I have written countless times on how to get Kadrons running. There should be lots of tuning material all over SAmba. Do a little digging.
There are no carbs out there that are simpler than Kadrons. This is about as basic as can be. No chokes. All you gotta do is match the throttle plates to move the same. |
Agreed. Sync first and then move to jetting. The uni-syn and a soup can with the top and bottom cut off works fine for these.
And the fact the both AJ and Kaddie Shack don't mark (or tell you the sizes!!!) of the jets is total horseshit. They were supposed to run out of the box, but they don't, and you don't even know what size they are supposed to be?! Sorry about you frustration, but this lack of service (from both vendors) is what led me to abandon Kadrons and move to Dellortos.
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Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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I'm pretty sure both AJ and Scott re-drill their jets to non-standard custom sizes.
They don't have teeny-tiny number stamps like jet manufacturers do and you can't blame them for that.
Would you rather they had wrong numbers?
It's easy enough to check what size they are once you get them in-hand.
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What’s That Noise?!? |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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| Clatter wrote: |
I'm pretty sure both AJ and Scott re-drill their jets to non-standard custom sizes.
They don't have teeny-tiny number stamps like jet manufacturers do and you can't blame them for that.
Would you rather they had wrong numbers?
It's easy enough to check what size they are once you get them in-hand. |
It is total horseshit that the jet sizes are secret.
They should put the sizes on the build sheet they give you as a receipt. |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9462
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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WTF secrets left in the VW aircooled? You are right - horseshit! People actually think they got some super-secret combo for a VW aircooled motor. 
Most the people claiming that do not even own a proper lineboring bar.
The snail- synch tool is the best there is. Best ones are from Germany. The Uni-Sync is junk- it chokes the motor too much.
You have to get some kind of adapter to go on the carbs throats. A paper cup works just fine. gEt the tall ones and cut the bottom to fit the snail snout.
Unhook one side of the linkage - I unhook the left. So the carbs are independent. Synch them the best you can..as close as you can w/ the link OFF. When you got them matched in flow - it does not matter where the numbers are on the flow as long as they are the same - when you hook the LEFT linkage...make sure the flows do not change.
Adjust the linkage to shorten or lenghten..depending on what you got on the flows. But the bottomline ---- the flows should NOT change when you hook the linkage back on. ONe side will always be dominant...I choose the Right side to be dominant. And the LEft side..not too far along in flows.
once you got both carbs matched, check the timing at idle... then check the total timing at past 2500 rpm if you are using 009 distributor.
AFter you got all that done, then you can fuck w/ the jetting size. If you have some kind of Lamba system to check A/F ratio be best. Or EGT gauges.
Hope this helps. |
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Lo Cash John
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004
Posts: 2246
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Nope, no problems with Kads at all (left lane)
Link
Lots of mods to make them work in a blow through turbo motor. No secrets at all. I've posted all details online:
Enlarge manifold to manifold balance hose to 5/8" inside diameter
Enlarged idle-air bypass circuit
Add ported vacuum port to carb on 3-4 side
Bigger venturies
Jetting changes
Emulsion tube mods
2.0mm needle valves (float valves)
As for syncing dual carbs, there is no better tool than a 2-channel or 4-channel vacuum gauge. To use this on Kads you MUST pinch off the balance tube between the carbs. Then you measure the vacuum under each carb. When that value is equal the carbs are perfectly synced.
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My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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I used to work on old Mercedes Benz carbureted cars like the 250.
It had 2 big Solex 2 barrels on it. There was a huge cup that went over the top of it then the Uni-syn went on top of that.
We would mess with them until they balanced perfectly then very carefully adjust the linkage so the ball / sockets would slide together perfectly. The detention springs on the sockets (just wire) could be slid out so there was no resistance.
Whenever one of these shitboxes would show up all us mechanics would head to break, lunch, or a road test until it got assigned to another poor bastard. Lol.
Im not even thinking about jets at this point. Im giving this one last perfectly orchestrated synch. Then I’m tell KS to sent me a new throttle body to swap out.
They solder up one of the transition holes and re-drill them. There is a good chance something is plugged up in a transition circuit. |
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