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Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap?
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4Gears4Tires
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

Man, you still haven't replaced your tank? You went through the trouble of draining, flushing, and filling the coolant but you didn't want to buy an aluminum tank?

You can lead a horse to water and all that....

That doesn't look like oil in the coolant to me. Oil in coolant looks like chocolate.

I think it's a good idea to remove the oil/coolant heat exchanger. I removed mine.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

Quote:
Man, you still haven't replaced your tank? You went through the trouble of draining, flushing, and filling the coolant but you didn't want to buy an aluminum tank?

You can lead a horse to water and all that....

It's true, I have not replaced the plastic pressure tank with an aluminum one. That was the happy consequence of discovering that I had an old blue cap that solved my issue (expansion tank receiving coolant, but not returning it to the pressure tank). Once fixed, I left it alone. That was a year ago. Now that I have a seemingly new issue, I'm back to considering an aluminum tank.

I wonder if the issue I had last year and what I'm experiencing now are not, in fact, related. I thought it was as simple as a bad blue cap. But could it be that I have a combustion leak that comes and goes? Furthermore, could it be more present in the Winter than in the Summer? That could explain things more simply than this notion that blue caps massively flawed and fragile.

Quote:
That doesn't look like oil in the coolant to me. Oil in coolant looks like chocolate

I still have the old dark coolant sitting in a white bucket. I wanted to see if it changed color after a week or two. But is exactly the same black-blue-green as the day I drained it. No oil sheen, nothing has dropped out of it to the bottom of the bucket. So, I don't think oil is getting into the coolant, as it would if there was a free flowing leak.

On the other hand, the internet has only yielded the alternative suggestion that dark coolant is the result of corroding hoses. I suppose that could be true, but that would not cause the engine to overheat, and for coolant to be low in the pressure tank. So, I have to believe the coolant color is darkening due to combustion gases blasting it.

I have been doing some more research on the combustion leak fix-it fluids that are out there. Specifically the kind that harden into glass when encountering high heat. As I mentioned before, I have had good luck with it in the past. So, I am not coming at this without some personal experience. It is vitally important, however, that you follow the directions. I suspect that many of the people who claim it clogged their engines simply did not follow the directions. On the other hand, maybe it also depends on the engine. I don't know. It worked for me on a Ford pick-up truck with a traditional radiator.

If you do not have a traditional radiator cap -- T3's do not, of course -- the directions say to disconnect and add the stuff to the radiator return line, when cold. Then reconnect it and start it up. You also have to remove the thermostat, and drain/refill after idling for an hour. It varies a little depending on the product. It also mentions that you can opt to remove the spark plug from the cylinder that's experiencing heavy leaking.

So, I removed my plugs to see if I could identify heavy leaking in one over the others. But I am no plug analysis expert. Does anyone know how to interpret these plug shots?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

They look perfect to me! How many miles on them?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

AllRad wrote:
could it be that I have a combustion leak that comes and goes?


If you did read my article, you already know that nearly every developing fire ring leak is intermittent at first, occurring only at high load full throttle operation, due to the simple balance of pressures and variance in physical forces explained in the article.

The article also tells how to clearly ascertain whether a fire ring leak is developing.
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AllRad
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

So, my van has been sitting around for a few weeks waiting for me to cast a magic spell that will repair the head gasket leak. I have been waiting for better weather and T-I-M-E.

Now, I know that you "real mechanics" are going to hate me for trying to use a coolant additive to do the job. But I figure it's worth a try, before I pay someone to remove the heads, etc. and -- you know -- "do it right."

In preparation for my plan, I emptied the funky coolant; flushed it; then, because we caught some freezing temperatures I re-filled it with some diluted blue coolant. A couple of weeks passed.

Eventually, I decided to take the van on a 30 mile run to see what happens. The pressure tank filled with exhaust gas, which pushed coolant into the overflow tank (behind the license plate), which overflowed and (interestingly) it never returned to the pressure tank, even after sitting overnight. In the past, I might have leaped to the assumption that the blue cap went bad, but this looks more like there was persistent positive pressure throughout the cooling system. As a result the coolant could not flow back into the system from the overflow tank. Also, when I cracked the blue cap on the cold system the next day, the pressure tank released a gush of gas, then immediately filled with coolant that came from NOT the overflow tank.

It's a little interesting that the pressure never faded -- I would have assumed that it would HAVE to relax after cooling off. That is, I would have thought that the gas pressure must leak back into the cylinder when the engine cools. It would return through the leak area that allowed it into the coolant when hot. That would show as white smoke at the next start-up -- which I have never noticed. It would show up on the spark plugs -- which do not show any issues. In my case, it appears to be more like a one way valve that allows gas pressure to leak into the coolant when the engine runs warm, but it does not get back into the cylinder, even after an overnight that comes close to freezing temperatures. While that seems a little weird, it is supported by my observations.

Having said all that, my plan for today was to drain the system (clean now), then proceed with removing the thermostat and ading some Bluedevil stop leak and distilled water. In the act of removing the thermostat cover, one of the bolts snapped clean off. Drat.

I'm vaguely aware that there are methods for removing broken bolts -- I THINK. How do I get this sucker out?!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

The classic sign of failed head gaskets. I'd try running it from cold with a full pressure tank and no cap and see what happens. If you see huge quantities of bubbles causing the tank to over flow even before the coolant gets warm and expands, then it just has to be bad gaskets unless the system hasn't been bled first.

Duncan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

AllRad wrote:

I'm vaguely aware that there are methods for removing broken bolts -- I THINK. How do I get this sucker out?!

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From a current thread. I don't know if it works but it sounds good to me and Howesight knows his stuff:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=776738
Howesight wrote:
I have the luxury of a MIG welder in the garage. Steel bolts and steel studs broken or stuck in aluminum castings are easy to extract with a welder. A stick welder (with a skilled operator) is even better.

You can place a nut over the end of the broken fastener and weld it to the broke stud or bolt and then move quickly to extract it. The reason it works is because the heat applied to the broken stud or bolt breaks the bond formed between the dissimilar metals. Most often, I just weld a nib on the end of the broken fastener and use vise grips to extract. This works on the first try half the time and the other half requires a repeat attempt.

With the portion of the fasteners still stuck in the OP's block, there may be enough steel remaining to use this approach. The wire on the MIG welder approach can be poked down into the existing hole to fill up the drilled out cavity.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

When you find the right size EZ OUT for that bolt...put it in the box with the others and thrown them into the nearest lake.

Take 5 minutes and center punch it in the middle +- 1 mm. Nice and deep. Now start drilling with a fresh drill bit, tiny drill, work up the the bolt diameter and it will magically spin out

You can Chase the threads or even through bolt that afterwards at your option
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

Try vice grips first.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

After it sat for days in multiple soaking's of WD40, with the hope that that would loosen things, I tried using vise grips. I even bought a pair a mini vise grips in order to be able to grip the bolt as flat & perpendicular as possible for the best grip, but it showed zero movement. I stopped before chewing the crud out of the remainder of the bolt.

I scoured the internet for solutions and watched hours of YouTube videos. Part of my issue is that the aluminum thermostat housing with the broken bolt, remains installed in the engine bay. That makes the bolt nearly impossible to drill out using a straight angle. I can only get to it at a tilted angle. Here's a shot of the broken bolt with a dimple drilled out of it using my Dremel.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Even though I've never welded anything in my life, my conclusion was that that only way to get it out would be to take the advice of others and weld a nut to it. So, I ran over to H. Freight and set myself up. I'M A WELDER NOW, BABY!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's a shot of my sheet metal weld spatter shield.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's the nut in place before getting welded.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's a shot of the frustrating result. The nut felt really secure, but in no time at all, it simply snapped off, yet again.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

--- --- ---
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Anyone have any new advice. This broken bolt is fused in there, for some reason. My wife suggested that I call AAA and have them send a mobile mechanic to get the thing out. Does anyone know if that realistic?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

the idea that you would spend the money on a welder that you dont know how to use(youre not a welder) to get a bolt out that you broke using the wrong solvent and the wrong tool to remove, is kinda blowing my mind. you should not attempt any more work on this ,listen to the wife she is very smart,smarter than you. pay to have it towed, its less than you spent for the welder i bet.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

One of the fundamental reasons I embrace being a Vanagon owner is to push myself into learning news skills. I have never had opportunity to do any automotive mechanics.

I was pretty much FREAKED OUT when using the welder for the first time, which was the act of fusing the nut to the broken bolt. It didn't work. I wish it would have. I'm miles from welding competency, but I'm not afraid to weld something now. That's worth the $300 it cost me for the gear.

Chipping away at my own ignorance. Thanks for the support.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

ok well a ton of very competent people have given you advice and some poepl have given you 'lazy'advice you can tell yourself that youre a proficient welder all day long sorry youre not and you wont be at all with that attitude and that gear. i have been welding for over 35 years and i still learn things about it all the time. youre in over your head and being stubborn and willfully ignorant about the correct way to fix a vehicle is not going to help. you asked if you thought that having a mechnic fix it was possible and i am telling you that you lack the requisite skills both physically and psychologically to listen to good advice and follow it. i just read this entire thread and think the best course of action for you is to call for help. dunning-kruger effect bigtime.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

AllRad wrote:
Part of my issue is that the aluminum thermostat housing with the broken bolt, remains installed in the engine bay. That makes the bolt nearly impossible to drill out using a straight angle.


That's what right-angle attachments are for. Wink

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Milescraft-Right-Angle-Drill-Attachment/1000034773
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

kamzcab86 wrote:
AllRad wrote:
Part of my issue is that the aluminum thermostat housing with the broken bolt, remains installed in the engine bay. That makes the bolt nearly impossible to drill out using a straight angle.


That's what right-angle attachments are for. Wink

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Milescraft-Right-Angle-Drill-Attachment/1000034773


Cool. Didn't know these existed. I think my next step might be to drill the whole bolt out , then re-tap the hole. Not that I've tapped anything before. LOL! My next adventuer x2. Bloodied but unbowed!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

Just go slow and make sure you start centered! If you start to slip off to one side, it's hard to recover. If you are not centered well enough, chasing the threads with a tap won't put them back!
Small drills snap real easy. Push it into the chuck as far as it will go so it's short.
New drills are sharp drills- they are cheaper than the mess dull drills create
Good luck!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

I have no doubt you can do this. It is going to take patience and several Oh, crap!! sessions still to come. By any chance are the fastenings stainless? Stainless loves aluminum so much they are never separated for better or worse and lots of times until death do them part. Well, it looks like the fastening died and so it's time to get your thermostat a new boy friend. In spite of Outcast's outbursts, you'll make it. Remember that for girls to find a decent boyfriend, they have to kiss a lot of toads. There are still a couple of toads to go, but don't worry. Cautious drilling, sneaking up on the diameter with plenty of light and magnification will allow you to be able to see what is happening.

And definitely use a new drill, as worn lips can cause a drill to wander. If you have to, shorten the drill by grinding a couple of Vs on opposite sides of the shank and then snap it off. Drills are the blind date. Not for the long haul, but fine to get the job at hand done. Ditto on the tap. Get some dental pics and as you start to get to the threads, you may get lucky and be able to tease some of the old bolt threads out. They--dental pics--are brittle, so don't use them as a crow bar.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

DuncanS wrote:
I have no doubt you can do this. It is going to take patience and several Oh, crap!! sessions still to come. By any chance are the fastenings stainless? Stainless loves aluminum so much they are never separated for better or worse and lots of times until death do them part. Well, it looks like the fastening died and so it's time to get your thermostat a new boy friend. In spite of Outcast's outbursts, you'll make it. Remember that for girls to find a decent boyfriend, they have to kiss a lot of toads. There are still a couple of toads to go, but don't worry. Cautious drilling, sneaking up on the diameter with plenty of light and magnification will allow you to be able to see what is happening.

And definitely use a new drill, as worn lips can cause a drill to wander. If you have to, shorten the drill by grinding a couple of Vs on opposite sides of the shank and then snap it off. Drills are the blind date. Not for the long haul, but fine to get the job at hand done. Ditto on the tap. Get some dental pics and as you start to get to the threads, you may get lucky and be able to tease some of the old bolt threads out. They--dental pics--are brittle, so don't use them as a crow bar.

Duncan




im one of those people that tells people what they need to hear ,not what they want to hear. the amount of time spent 'convincing' this poster to do the correct thing in this thread is substantial. they havent seemed to take the good advice dispensed, a good student knows how to take advice and benefit from it. a terrible student blames the teacher. i dont doubt that the OP can fix the bolt but the patience required exceeds my timeline.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

Kinda surprised there outcast. A little Terryesque don't you think.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign of a bad coolant pressure cap? Reply with quote

maybe alaskadan, you could be right. sometimes i guess it just gets frustrating to see people give good advice and see it go unused. maybe im being too hard on the OP, we all have to start somewhere. i find it increasingly difficult to remain optimistic these days. sorry if i was out of line Embarassed
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