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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Hello all, Hope I can get a bit of help with bleeding my brakes. Though I've done this many times before, this one is giving me a headache. I replaced al that pertains to the break system, I up to bleeding the system. The break peddle is hard at the top. moves about an inch and half, but the bug wont stop. I have to depress the peddle very hard to get it to slow down a bit. I used a power bleeder, witch I have had great success with on other projects. I'm stumped on this one. I bench bleed the MC prior to mounting it, and bled it again with it mounted in the buggy by just cracking the top screw a bit. It bled a bit, doing this several times, using a helper. No air bubbles. Then again at each wheel using the power bleeder. Still the peddle is very hard and still hard to stop. Do I still need to keep bleeding at each wheel several times?. Never had to do that before. Any Ideas as to what I need to do next?... Any help would be greatly appreciated.... |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8689 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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I can't say if that is your issue, but the top screw on a dual circuit master cylinder is not a bleeder, but a retainer for the second circuit plunger. It is possible you have fouled up something inside the master.
_________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Thank you for the response. The screw that your are referring to is the # 16 in the diagram. No I haven't touched that screw. The one I was referring to is the # 20 in the diagram. Just cracked open enough to let it bleed a second, with my helper. (Wifey helper ).lol..Did this a few times. We'll see...Please keep them coming...... |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20366 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Check brake pedal free play....
_________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Dale M. Yes, I did this although this always confuses me. My set up has two nuts. One is a locking nut and the other I'm assuming is the adjusting nut. But don't you screw the rod away from the MC to set it, then lock down the nuts?... I'm guessing a turn or two to get it close to the demission's. No? This is an older pic where the peddle is way forward. I've since fixed that, but I wanted to shoe where the adjusting nuts are and its the only pic I have right now. Hope you can see them. Double click to enlarge..
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20366 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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legotech7 wrote: |
Dale M. Yes, I did this although this always confuses me. My set up has two nuts. One is a locking nut and the other I'm assuming is the adjusting nut. But don't you screw the rod away from the MC to set it, then lock down the nuts?... I'm guessing a turn or two to get it close to the demission's. No? This is an older pic where the peddle is way forward. I've since fixed that, but I wanted to shoe where the adjusting nuts are and its the only pic I have right now. Hope you can see them. Double click to enlarge..
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THE lock nut is against the piece that attaches to pedal. the nut next to rubber boot is the adjusting (shaft) nut... _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2494 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Did you up the diameter of the master cyl ? I got in a bind once, swapped a 5/8 mc for a 3/4 mc for my clutch. Effort to depress almost doubled. _________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5448 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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I think I may see the problem. Did you have the pedal cluster out or adjust the pedal stop? It looks like the brake pedal may be on the wrong side of the stop that is supposed to stop the pedal from returning too far after you release the brake (or clutch.) If that happened then you could push down some but then hit the back side of the stop, keeping you from pushing the pedal down farther.
I'm used to seeing the brake and clutch pedal more line up when released. That's what caught my eye in your picture.
Oh, this whole "break" or "brake" issues really messes with my head. I suppose both might be right if you break your brakes, but I had to read every sentence twice. If I break something I destroy it. If I brake something I bring it to a stop. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Thank you gentleman. Yes dale I figured as much. And upon further inspection I had to fabricate that peddle stop, because the PO made the floor pans for this buggy. And had to drill a new hole for it location, and the usual peddle stops were to small. I think I have to elongate the hole in the stop to make it more adjustable, and bring that peddle to the proper location. Thank you EVfun for that. You guys are great, thanks for the help.. |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8689 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Read through the text on this page from the service manual. You need to have 7 7/8" of pedal travel, that is the distance from the back of the pedal to where it hits the bulkhead. This is to give correct amount of travel for the dual circuit master if one circuit fails.
Once you set pedal travel with the pedal stop, you can go back and reset the push rod length and free play. Then I would bleed manually.
_________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Yes I think the problem may be the peddle stop. Like I said before, I'll have to elongate the mounting hole to adjust it properly, and go from there. Thanks again... |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5152
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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When bleeding be sure to adjust the shoes so they are tight against the drums. Then after you have bled all 4 back them off evenly just so the wheel turns |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Following up on my breaks issue. I finally got the peddle free play adjusted following the procedures listed here. "7-7/8'' from peddle to fire wall and the peddle at 7mm by adjusting the peddle rod. After adjusting the brakes at each wheel and then bleeding them as well. Took her out for a quick run, and she stopped pretty well as I came to a stop sign. Peddle feels firm not hard. But as I was heading back home I stopped before getting into my drive way. Then I had to apply a little more pressure to get her to stop. I think she might still have some air in the lines. I'll have to bleed them again and see. Never had this much trouble when doing VW brakes!
Sheesh!!!!!!I'll bleed and see...... |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5152
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Did you adjust the brakes by tightening them up against the drums, bleeding them, and then backing them off correctly? |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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jspbtown, Haven't done them yet as you described, but when I do, I will post results. Next day off is Wednesday, I'll try then. And thanks... |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Well had some time today to bleed the brakes. Did as you suggested, adjust the brakes by tightening them up against the drums, bleeding them, and then backing them off. Went for a ride and still the same. It stops with the extra applied pressure, but in an emergency stop< I think I would be in trouble. I just don't know... More bleeding?....I was hoping to go to Farmington this Sunday, but I think so... |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5152
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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So these are new shoes, new lines (hard and soft), new wheel cylinders? Drums turned? |
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pugwash Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 57 Location: WALES
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:01 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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Try jamming the brake on overnight, place a piece of wood across the steerng wheel and then brace a piece between the wood and brake pedal with the pedal "on" |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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jspbtown Everything , all the brake hardware as well as the hard lines are new. It the first thing I do when I acquire a new bug. Safety first. I did go through the hard line to see if there might be a kink somewhere , but no, everything seem to be fine. This shouldn't be this difficult, right? Scratching my head. I will try to bleed them again and again if necessary... |
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legotech7 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 879 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Break Bleeding Issue |
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pugwash, jamming the brakes?... How does that work?. I'll try that as well. Got lots of time, what the hell!... Thanks |
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