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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5506
Location: 1st Coast
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 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: Thermal imager. |
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Anyone use this FILR thermal imager for home heat loss @ $200? Or have a better suggestion?
FLIR One Pro LT iOS Pro-Grade Thermal Camera for Smartphones
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
Last edited by LAGrunthaner on Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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it is an awesome tool for what i use it for. A+ from me
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
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| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9955
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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I have 3 of those. I used to lug around a FLIR E5, then FLIR came out with that camera for an iphone! Has the same technology and is WAY easier to lug around. It works great, but you do need to know how to use it and what its limitations are. The biggest issue I have is latent surface heat or refractory heat. Both of those energies can mislead what you are seeing.
Buy it, go out and view everything you understand the dynamics at play on. Then start reviewing what you are seeing through the camera. Once you get it, this camera, is a great tool to have at hand!
I have used both the regular one and the Pro one. Spend the extra 80 and get the Pro unit!
https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-ONE-Thermal-Imaging-Ca...0248575636
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5506
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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Great, going for the Pro.
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
I have 3 of those. I used to lug around a FLIR E5, then FLIR came out with that camera for an iphone! Has the same technology and is WAY easier to lug around. It works great, but you do need to know how to use it and what its limitations are. The biggest issue I have is latent surface heat or refractory heat. Both of those energies can mislead what you are seeing.
Buy it, go out and view everything you understand the dynamics at play on. Then start reviewing what you are seeing through the camera. Once you get it, this camera, is a great tool to have at hand!
I have used both the regular one and the Pro one. Spend the extra 80 and get the Pro unit!
https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-ONE-Thermal-Imaging-Ca...0248575636 |
_________________
American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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| Maybe you can finally settle the "paint your block flat black... or not" question! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Maybe you can finally settle the "paint your block flat black... or not" question! |
That was already settled.....in the industries who require the knowledge....in about the early 1950's. Maybe earlier.
Not being pointy or insulting....just saying....the only people who can't quite wrap their head around it are those who either do not fully understand the physics of light.....and heat production outside of the actual combustion process.... exudes all wavelengths of light....every single wavelength from infrared through visible through UV....and transfers heat through all methods...convection, conduction, radiation.......or they have simply not taken the time to prove it to themselves.
I think I am pushing about 60 clients right now over my career.... that I have had to set up the experiments on their production floor or in their lab and prove it on the spot....because they needed to know for their process.
The last one I did was for a tool maker in Arkansas in January. First time I have ever had to do it with a spring steel blank.....which is what their process was working with.
The range of coloration was from bluish black to bare metal in semi-gloss (brushed actually) through matt (which was just a control example done with sand blasting...because it ruins the spring temper).....to painted white (titanium and calcium based)...to full polish.
Back to the FLIR tool....great tool....but not effective for the "dark color" provenance test. Flat black metal sheds heat not only in the infrared bands as pure IR but also through conduction for anything it is mounted to. It literally heats the air around it and you will get distortion with a FLIR.
The Black body" test is simply done with (for example the one I mentioned above)...four identical plates with a K type thermocouple mounted to the center backside and a digital thermometer.
The difference in each one under a uniform heat source....is dramatic enough that the +/- accuracy of a K type thermocouple makes no difference.
I this case were purely looking at heat loss. First all four were heated up in a batch oven, equally spaced on a covered tray on teflon blocks until they read the same temp (this was the wrong way to do this and I let them know it but proceeded). The covered tray was removed and placed in another cool batch oven with no airflow.
Watching and timing the heat loss rate from all four.....the bluish black plate lost the slowest.....and this test was actually a failure....and a success.....as it got them to understand the difference in absorption and reflection/conductance/irradiance by seeing two different methods
The problem was that these four plates ....even equally spaced from each other....the bluish black plate....was absorbing the shed heat from the other three. The painted plate was second slowest because the paint is a heat bank. The polished plate was the fastest and teh matte plate second fastest.
Their production process is actually UV curing. They should have heated the plates under a uniform UV light source (which puts out full spectrum from infrared through UV).
What was found by that method
Bluish black....heats up far faster because it reflects very little of any wavelength away (still not as fast as matte black)
The matt plate (we actually used the brushed one) was second fastest but would not get as hot because its still reflecting some UV and visible light away.
The painted white was slow to heat up by an order of magnitude. It reflects away a wide spectrum of visible light and UV (which both also produce heat as they are energy).
The polished/gloss plate did not get nearly as hot as the other three and heated up easily 50% slower than the blackish blue plate.
Even better....heat loss wise...cool down.....
Black slowest
White painted next slowest
Matte next slowest
Polished...damn quick.
Only in automotive and hobbyiest forums (of all types) does anyone think this is something that still needs to be "proven" 
I can give you part numbers of nearly perfect black body paints that my aerospace buddie have been using on satellites and aircraft as heat sinks for ages.....if you want to pay $300 a quart!  ....until a few scientists in articles noted that they found that there are actually a couple of cheap spray paints that produce "emittance" levels at about 97% of what the specialty coatings do
Ray
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69809
Location: Phoenix Metro
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22640
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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I hope this is declassified now but the USSR figured out how to defeat a $4B laser Missile knockdown program …..with paint….
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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I should have added a winky icon... my comment was meant as a joke!  |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| I hope this is declassified now but the USSR figured out how to defeat a $4B laser Missile knockdown program …..with paint…. |
Yep! 
Also not sure "which" defeat you are speaking of as there have been several.
Air defense wise....
The USSR....on the S400 and now prototyped S500 Sam system use a combination of phased array normal radar across several bands....from millimeter to meter....to get a VECTOR....but it cannot lock onto stealth aircraft....right?
The lock on is done by by multiphase pulse doppler. It measures the air disturbance AROUND the aircraft. It was designed to DEFEAT stealth....and has proven to do so....knocking down an Israeli F-35 in July of 2017.
To do this....It used the S400 radar system based at Tartus to actually GUIDE a 27 year old missile design in the Sam-3 family from an outdated S300 system...300 miles away....to zap the F-35.
It did not destroy the F-35....but forced it to emergency landing....and it took 2 years to make it airworthy again.
The S400 has three rings of missile types. The close range high resolution....mach 2.5. Medium range...and about mach 3-4....and long range lower resolution ...beyond visual range at mach 5 plus.
I "think" what you are speaking of .....are the Russian hypersonic tests. They have been doing them for decades....and recently are fairly successful with the zircon missile
https://apnews.com/article/business-europe-russia-...%20miles).
And the Sarmat/ Satan 2
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9545125/R...-nuke.html
Just like the Chinese hypersonic missile this week.
While neither of them use paints or coatings to evade radar.....still in the same realm
ANY....ANY hypersonic projectile ...that is above mach 5 (actually closer to mach 7 depending on altitude)....that is IN THE ATMOSPHERE...cannot be picked up or detected by ANY radar system known to man....because the hypersonic speed ionizes the outside shell....fully disrupting and absorbing any radar radiation that strikes it.
This is WHY....all spacecraft re-entering the atmosphere at high speed.....have a "cone of silence" for both radar tracking and radio communication....for a period of time until atmospheric drag slows them down below mach 6-7.
It can be picked up on infrared....because it hot as f*ck at that speed......but if its coming in low like thee are designed to do...not ballistically like a missile....you have to do it from a distance or from above (orbital or high altitude). At the speed it travels...tracking optically is tough. Needs purpose built equipment.....different from what we have.
And by the way....the Soviets/Russians...did and have done more of this type of research than we in the West have. It does not mean they built better quality or more effective equipment with that R&D knowledge.....but they have been WAY ahead of us in so many areas over time....knowledge and concept wise.
Sorry to get off subject...but could not resist.....
Everett B said:
| Quote: |
| Ray - You should post the cheap spray paint options. |
I actually did.....after a little testing of a couple that some associates said had really low emissivity.
First the expensive aerospace proven paints:
For reference...anything with an emissivity index of above about 0.92....is excellent.
Aremco 840 series "black body" high emissivity paint
https://www.aremco.com/high-emissivity-coatings/
Acktar specializes in high emissivity black coatings
https://www.acktar.com/
La-Co.....Tempil 25002 high emissivity black paint (About $120-$130 a gallon)
The cheap stuff.....Rustoleum 7778-83...flat black high temp spray paint.
https://www.truevalue.com/high-heat-spray-paint-bbq-flat-black-12-oz
This is said to be emissivity of about 0.93-0.95...and my testing shows its pretty damn good.
Krylon 1602 Ultra flat black is said ....lightwise....to be an emissivity of about 0.95+....but I do not know its metal content and whether it BANKS heat and have not tested it myself yet.
https://www.toolup.com/Krylon-1602-Ultra-flat-black-spray-paint-12oz
Ray |
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EverettB
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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Thank you for fixing my link!
Yes.....but they are specific. Not just any old black paint for BBQ grills.
This does not mean that the ingredients are something exotic. But....the GOOD paint companies (including spray paint) actually keep very tight control of ingredients and chemistry....because its the difference between adhesion and no adhesion.
There are Krylons and Rustoleum products used in aerospace, military and rail...that have to meet uniform specs. Easier to just do them all one way.
In enamels...you can find alkyd enamels, epoxies, urethanes, polyesters...silicone polyesters, silicone alkyd's etc etc......all in rattle cans.
Different chemistry sometimes just needs to be used to be able to work with different pigments....or end use temperature ranges.....and we have not even gotten into the chemistry, pigment and filler systems that produce matt, satin and gloss and how those factors change adhesion , weathering and lifespan.
So the reason why I can only recommend the brand, series and part #'s I know.........is because.....some of these "high emissivity" paints.....have high emission absorption for the widest spectrum of light including heat, UV and radiant visible light....but may also have high RETENTION due to porosity and metals or filler additives.
Ray |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9955
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Thank you for fixing my link!
Yes.....but they are specific. Not just any old black paint for BBQ grills.
This does not mean that the ingredients are something exotic. But....the GOOD paint companies (including spray paint) actually keep very tight control of ingredients and chemistry....because its the difference between adhesion and no adhesion.
There are Krylons and Rustoleum products used in aerospace, military and rail...that have to meet uniform specs. Easier to just do them all one way.
In enamels...you can find alkyd enamels, epoxies, urethanes, polyesters...silicone polyesters, silicone alkyd's etc etc......all in rattle cans.
Different chemistry sometimes just needs to be used to be able to work with different pigments....or end use temperature ranges.....and we have not even gotten into the chemistry, pigment and filler systems that produce matt, satin and gloss and how those factors change adhesion , weathering and lifespan.
So the reason why I can only recommend the brand, series and part #'s I know.........is because.....some of these "high emissivity" paints.....have high emission absorption for the widest spectrum of light including heat, UV and radiant visible light....but may also have high RETENTION due to porosity and metals or filler additives.
Ray |
Ray - Thank you for all of this! I soak up information like a sponge! I then go research it for several days! Drives the Mrs crazy. The amount of knowledge you just unleashed, is astounding!
Thanks for my next object for my OCD!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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I still laugh at the engineers who were testing a Hughes thermal imager and tracking software (military quality advanced prototype) from the rooftop lab. They were tracking aircraft, cars, and even birds. Neat stuff!
When they turned it on the campus sidewalks, they noticed unique heat signatures for men and women. They laughed like 8 year old boys (aren't we all inside?) when a guy farted and the signature was evident on the display.
This was 25 years ago and they are way better now.
The imagers, not the engineers/boys! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
I still laugh at the engineers who were testing a Hughes thermal imager and tracking software (military quality advanced prototype) from the rooftop lab. They were tracking aircraft, cars, and even birds. Neat stuff!
When they turned it on the campus sidewalks, they noticed unique heat signatures for men and women. They laughed like 8 year old boys (aren't we all inside?) when a guy farted and the signature was evident on the display.
This was 25 years ago and they are way better now.
The imagers, not the engineers/boys! |
So back on subject to the thermal imager.....
Yes.....The technology is much better now. The problem like so mamy other technologies.....is what is the most correct and/or accurate use for it?
I like VW_Jimbo's earlier comment to go out and but one....and read everything with it.....to kind of calibrate yourself between what you KNOW about an objects heat and what tbe tool tells you.
That issue means.....that if you want to know what is changing in what the thermal imager tells you.....you need to know actual temperature of what you are reading, distance and amhoent conditions. You need to be able to take hard....in contact.....actual measurements and compare with what the imager reads.
Where the FLIR or thermal imager shines......is when reading something that is not VISUALLY hot (nothing is glowing).....and you aimply need to know where the hotteat and coolest spots are......without having to measure all over it.
If the heat rise or drop is transient......by the time you do enough in contact surtace measurements......the condition may have changed.
The problem is......real accuracy. For most things you may not need it. But just like IR pistol style thermometers......the path through distance and air changes the accuracy. Ray |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9955
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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I have found them to be very accurate with what I do, finding leaks in homes and businesses. Or finding bad circuit breaker or faulty electrical connections inside of boxes, BEFORE TAKING THEM APART!
Here is a leak I found in a wall. The customer called me because the plumber they have used quoted them $15000.00 to replumb there home due to a "slab leak". They said he walked in, could feel the wet carpet and that it was a slab leak.
This guy was a mechanical engineer and was not buying it. He called me, through another customer. I showed up and hit the room with my camera. Here is what I found! Mind you, it took me all of less than 1 minutes to find it!
So then I pan around with the camera and find that the room is soaked! That blue puddle is the water sucking the heat out of the floor!
We open up the wall.
And find this!
Thats how I make my living! Seeing through walls and floors!
Ended in a complete 2 story, 3 bathroom repipe in PEX! Then we got to go through and replace the carpet downstairs!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22640
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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Beer and PEX are how we know God loves us.
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5506
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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WOW! WOW! WOW! VW_Jimbo I'm so impressed with these images. Is the unit you used the FLIR One Pro LT iOS Pro-Grade? If so I can hardly wait to get mine and after I find all the drafts in my home I'll take it to school and show my engineering students. They are going to LOVE it as much as me not to mention my popularity going through the roof LOL.
Also I don't have any water trouble but is PEX that plastic plumbing? I've been intrigued with that style being I'm old school and find it so challenging to sweat pipes so close to wood. I'll have to do some homework on that PEX.
Thank you kindly professor for posting this.
Linda
FLIR One Pro LT iOS Pro-Grade Thermal Camera for Smartphones
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
I have found them to be very accurate with what I do, finding leaks in homes and businesses. Or finding bad circuit breaker or faulty electrical connections inside of boxes, BEFORE TAKING THEM APART!
Here is a leak I found in a wall. The customer called me because the plumber they have used quoted them $15000.00 to replumb there home due to a "slab leak". They said he walked in, could feel the wet carpet and that it was a slab leak.
This guy was a mechanical engineer and was not buying it. He called me, through another customer. I showed up and hit the room with my camera. Here is what I found! Mind you, it took me all of less than 1 minutes to find it!
So then I pan around with the camera and find that the room is soaked! That blue puddle is the water sucking the heat out of the floor!
We open up the wall.
And find this!
Thats how I make my living! Seeing through walls and floors!
Ended in a complete 2 story, 3 bathroom repipe in PEX! Then we got to go through and replace the carpet downstairs! |
_________________
American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
Last edited by LAGrunthaner on Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22640
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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Cross linked polyethylene.
You make all the joints with oetiker style hardware. It’s ridiculously labor saving, flexible, freeze proof, goof proof.
You can cut into it and splice is new fitting in 15 seconds.
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9955
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Thermal imager. |
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| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
WOW! WOW! WOW!
Also I don't have any water trouble but is PEX that plastic plumbing? I've been intrigued with that style being I'm old school and find it so challenging to sweat pipes so close to wood. I'll have to do some homework on that PEX.
Thank you kindly professor for posting this.
Linda |
All PEX! Well except for any tie ins and manifolds, and the fittings at each valve body. There is a sweat to PEX fitting that you use at these locations.
I grew up sweating copper. Getting pipes through the walls was a pain in the ass! Still is, but it isn’t. Pushing curved tubing through 1-3/8” holes is no easy task! Especially since you can run a full length through several walls and joist cavities. It takes 2 big guys to pull and push this shit through. Epically the 1 inch stuff!
But if you have a basic understanding and the time, it is one of the easier things to accomplish.
We have completely stopped using Chinese copper. Too many problems! Until copper starts coming from another manufacturer, PEX has the #1 spot in my heart!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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