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Starter Issue - replace or something else?
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theguyryry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Hey all! Bubba and I made it down to san diego. I just signed a lease for an apartment in solana beach, and I'm super stoked about it. On the way down, I got stuck at a gas station after filling up. Turning the key didn't do anything, so I got under the bus with a screwdriver and connected the terminals on the solenoid(?) and the starter seemed to be working (saw sparks and the starter made a spinning noise). I jumped back in the bus, turned the key, and it started right up. Now, every time I turn the bus off I have to do the same process (jump under the bus and bridge the terminal connections to the starter, then start it with the ignition). Is this a sign that the starter is beginning to fail and that I should replace it? Or is there something else going on?

At first I was thinking it was another wiring issue, but i'm a bit stumped because it seems to work as soon as I bridge the connections temporarily.

Thank you in advance!
Ryan
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theguyryry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Also, does anyone have recommendations for a mechanic in San Diego county? Just in case I get over my head on any mechanical work...
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

The VW starters are notorious at doing this, What year? It's something about any garage can do, it's only 2 bolts? It could be something else though. Or even a combination of things:
Poor Battery,
Poor Charging,
Poor ground or battery cable,
Bad Ignition Switch,
Overheating engine,
Poor Starter likely the Solenoid needs cleaning and lubed.
Etc.... Maybe get the SR-17x starter incase it's a worn bell housing bushing, it doesn't use one.
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Last edited by Danwvw on Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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theguyryry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
The VW starters are notorious at doing this, What year? It's something about any garage can do, it's only 2 bolts? It could be something else though. Or even a combination of things:
Poor Battery,
Poor Charging,
Poor ground or battery cable,
Bad Ignition Switch,
Overheating engine,
Poor Starter likely the Solenoid needs cleaning and lubed.
Etc.... Maybe get the SR-17x starter incase it's a worn bell housing bushing, it doesn't use one.


Thanks for the quick response! The bus is a 1973 manual transmission. Over the summer I had charging issues, so I've recently replaced the battery, voltage regulator, alternator, and wiring to those components.

Driving down I was worried that the engine was running a bit hot in the San Francisco area, which is where it started happening.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

If you have a voltmeter if it's a charging issue the rest voltage on the battery will be low. It should be 12.6 volts. The charging voltage should be 14 volts.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

And for a mechanic, contact Robbie (AsiaB3) or Gary (Aeromech) on these forums. Both reasonably close to you. If everything else checks out, consider a hot start relay. I have had one on my bus for 6? 8? years.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Pull the starter and then remove the solenoid from it and use a spray cleaner to clean up the plunger in the solenoid. Lube it back up with something like Super Lube or a high temperature electrical grease. This will probably keep the solenoid going strong until it's time to rebuild the starter. If you are really game you can check the condition of the starter brushes while you are at it, if they are no longer tall enough to stick out passed the ends of the brush holders they are shot and the starter is due for a rebuild.

A hand impact driver is a good tool to have on hand when you go to tear into a starter and can be quite useful for other repairs.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Pull the starter and then remove the solenoid from it and use a spray cleaner to clean up the plunger in the solenoid. Lube it back up with something like Super Lube or a high temperature electrical grease. This will probably keep the solenoid going strong until it's time to rebuild the starter. If you are really game you can check the condition of the starter brushes while you are at it, if they are no longer tall enough to stick out passed the ends of the brush holders they are shot and the starter is due for a rebuild.

A hand impact driver is a good tool to have on hand when you go to tear into a starter and can be quite useful for other repairs.

x2

it is a well known issue and 99% of the time lubing the solenoid solves the issue for another 60,000 miles. you can just tap the side of the solenoid and that will causei to work usually too. A hot start relay is a waste of money unless you are trying to protect the ignition switch. Sometimes hot start replays bring about their own set of problems.
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theguyryry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

OB Bus wrote:
And for a mechanic, contact Robbie (AsiaB3) or Gary (Aeromech) on these forums. Both reasonably close to you. If everything else checks out, consider a hot start relay. I have had one on my bus for 6? 8? years.


I just reached out to Gary! Thank you for the advice!
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

10 PM update

Ryan started driving the 15 miles or so from his place in Solana Beach to bring his bus to my house. The job was for a starter not cranking with the key. He got within 7 miles and broke down on 5 south in Sorento Valley. There was a long tow truck delay but he finally arrived on a flat bed around 9pm.

Once he left, I used a wrench and started rotating the engine. After about 20 degrees it stopped hard. So I reversed and after about 40 degrees it stopped again.

So I’m thinking we’ve moved beyond a starter issue to an internal engine issue. There is no oil spewed anywhere so I don’t think he threw a rod. My guess is it’s a cam gear bolt hitting the oil pump.

Telford is coming over at 9 am and then we’ll investigate. Might as well keep all of this in one thread but the title might need to be altered some
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alman72
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

bubbais a 1973 single carb?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

bummer
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

alman72 wrote:
bubbais a 1973 single carb?

Yep!
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theguyryry
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
bummer


You're telling me! As Aeromech said to me last night, "You could be in Alaska".
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Here's the beginning of some pics to add a bit of artwork to this thread.

Ryan and his friend.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


He bought this bus last year in Florida and had it delivered to his home in Portland

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Now for the gory details. After making the long trip from Portland to the San Diego area, Ryan decided to bring his bus to me for some starter troubleshooting. Here's what happened about 10 minutes from my house.

Those aren't Telfords legs

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Telford working on removing the bad head

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tip of #2 valve stem let go and the #2 exhaust valve departed

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's the number two spark plug

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound


Last edited by aeromech on Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Hide your eyes

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Were all the exhaust valves the same so that we could learn the brand? The ends of the valve stems speak of high miles on the engine since the last rebuild and/or the use of substandard valves.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Were all the exhaust valves the same so that we could learn the brand? The ends of the valve stems speak of high miles on the engine since the last rebuild and/or the use of substandard valves.


I haven't looked closely. Telford and Robbie both said that the lifters were solids but the push rods were made for hydraulics. Not sure how that would have affected things.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound
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CrRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Issue - replace or something else? Reply with quote

On a positive note: He is very lucky to break down where He did. He is in good hands. Unlucky, but very lucky... if you know what I mean.
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