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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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 Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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Bolting up my exhaust manifolds to the heads and #1 exhaust stud (outer) would not tighten. Backed off and the stud fell out. Not expecting that especially after the heads had been rebuilt. The threads of the stud had aluminum transferred. So, the stud hole had very few threads remaining but looked in good condition. Where to go from here...? 
Do I use a helicoil or this " EZ LOK " solid wall insert? I don't want to screw up here. Not pulling this engine back out if I can help it. Not totally confident about doing this myself because I have never installed a "helicoil" type of part before. I do know that the angle when setting the stud has to be spot on otherwise there will be problems fitting everything back together. Any help/suggestions appreciated.
Bill |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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There is a M8/M9 stud for use when the old hole is gone ....I believe people tap the hol to M9 and use this stud more often then putting a Helicoil type in....not sure but others will chime in and tell.
I have sucessfully fitted the M8/M9 stud with the engine in from under the car a couple of times.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
Bolting up my exhaust manifolds to the heads and #1 exhaust stud (outer) would not tighten. Backed off and the stud fell out. Not expecting that especially after the heads had been rebuilt. The threads of the stud had aluminum transferred. So, the stud hole had very few threads remaining but looked in good condition. Where to go from here...?
Do I use a helicoil or this " EZ LOK " solid wall insert? I don't want to screw up here. Not pulling this engine back out if I can help it. Not totally confident about doing this myself because I have never installed a "helicoil" type of part before. I do know that the angle when setting the stud has to be spot on otherwise there will be problems fitting everything back together. Any help/suggestions appreciated.
Bill |
What Lars noted is a good method but also the EZ lock is an excellent method. Its actually a bit better than the M8/M9 stud.
DO NOT use helicoils. They have a short life. As the head expands from heat the "coil" type insert expands and spreads. This is not a problem against the bolt but causes issues between the softer aluminum and the coil.
Any kind of solid wall coil is better in aluminum that is cast and has a wide range of heat expansion.
The object of the EZ-lock that makes it better than the step stud is that it will have the 8mm-1.25 thread on the inside but you want a COARSE thread on the outside. This makes the cross section of the thread lands greater and less prone to cracking or pull out than finer threads.
This is the one you want....
https://www.ezlok.com/ezlok-insert-650-8
It has 8mm x 1.25 ID with 1/2" -13 SAE outside for that very coarse thread cross section.
You can also use this one which is all SAE with 5/16-18 inside and 1/2"-13 outside.
https://www.ezlok.com/ezlok-insert-329-5
Let me tell you why that all SAE one may be useful.
First....You want to use studs in these. So the object is that before you install the threaded insert you screw in the stud you want and make sure it does to screw out the other side of the threaded insert. Mark the stud. Take it out and distort the thread with a punch all around o that wen you screw it in it cannot go any deeper and push against the bottom of the bore and jack the insert out of the head ruining the threads.
So....if you cannot get good enough studs in what you want in metric....class 10,9 or better....get good SAE Holo-Krome set screw stud stock in grade 8 or just plain grade 8 5/16 studs.
Find your studs first so you now what inserts you will need. Yes, in a pinch you can take an all threaded class 10.9 or grade 8 5/16" bolt and cut the heads off and use that.
Ray |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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So guys, I see these are really good solutions. Anyway you cut it, I am having to clean out the hole with a drill bit of appropriate size, and then retap the hole. How is this done accurately without any sort of guide. This is the part that scares me a little. I do have the benefit of having the car on my lift, so access is easy. But do I have the confidence to get a correct aligned hole?
Bill |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
So guys, I see these are really good solutions. Anyway you cut it, I am having to clean out the hole with a drill bit of appropriate size, and then retap the hole. How is this done accurately without any sott of guide. This is the part that scares me a little. I do have the benefit of having the car on my lift, so access is easy. But do I have the confidence to get a correct aligned hole?
Bill |
Ok....done this many times. Bolt the manifold back up with as many functional nuts as you still have. Use the empty hole in the manifold where you plan to replace the stud....as a drill guide.
The only drilling you should be doing is when you drill the new hole for the insert. The drill bit you will need is 27/64. This presents a small problem....that the 27/64 drill bit is slightly larger than the hole in the header flange.
And.....you MUST use a drill stop to positively not make the thread bore more than about 2.0 threads deeper than it already is. There is no meat underneath these studs.
There are several ways to think about this problem:
1. You can first drill the manifold hole through with the 27/64 bit.....then install the manifold with the other 3 nuts and use a rod to measure the EXACT depth you are going to drill. Set up your 27/64 drill bit and drill until you hit the depth stop. You can then simply tap the hole in the manifold using it as a tap guide all the way into the head .
Then remove the tap, clean out the bore and use a bottoming tap. You should them grind the last taper thread off the bottoming tap to get threads in all the way.
This leaves the hole in the manifold flange slightly oversized so you need a good washer under the.nut or you can slip in a bushing. The washer works fine.
2. Since all of these studs are the same age...trust me....you have more than one that will eventually pull out. I would do the first one.....then pull the manifold remove another stud and do each one in turn.
I will measure a hole in my manifold tomorrow if I can to see what it starts at. Ray |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| Lars S wrote: |
There is a M8/M9 stud for use when the old hole is gone ....I believe people tap the hol to M9 and use this stud more often then putting a Helicoil type in....not sure but others will chime in and tell.
I have sucessfully fitted the M8/M9 stud with the engine in from under the car a couple of times.
Lars S |
The step stud application intrests me alot. Just seems a bit easier to do. Maybe I could do that and if for some reason it does not work out I could go to the EZ Lok solid wall insert? Lars S, you seem happy with your step stud fix.
Bill |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
| Lars S wrote: |
There is a M8/M9 stud for use when the old hole is gone ....I believe people tap the hol to M9 and use this stud more often then putting a Helicoil type in....not sure but others will chime in and tell.
I have sucessfully fitted the M8/M9 stud with the engine in from under the car a couple of times.
Lars S |
The step stud application intrests me alot. Just seems a bit easier to do. Maybe I could do that and if for some reason it does not work out I could go to the EZ Lok solid wall insert? Lars S, you seem happy with your step stud fix.
Bill |
The only long term issue with doing the step stud...is that if it fails there may not be enough meat left to do the insert method.
The step stud is a good enough method....but in my opinion the 9mm threads can have the same problem down the line. They need a coarse thread.
A lot of this also has to do with the fact that the aluminum gets brittle with age. It really needs to be annealed.
Ray |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
The step stud application intrests me alot. Just seems a bit easier to do. Maybe I could do that and if for some reason it does not work out I could go to the EZ Lok solid wall insert? Lars S, you seem happy with your step stud fix.
Bill |
Im no expert on this, always nervous and extremely carful when dealing with the studs...never overtightening the stud nuts etc
The 4 to 5 studs I have replace with the 8/9mm stud has worked well however I dont drive a lot, just summertime cruising but properly done the 8/9 mm stud should be better that the stock 8/8 one since the 9mm has more "grab" surface in the head.
The 1.8 and later bus 2.0 engines came with the 8/9mm solution as stock as an improvement i suppose.
There is also an 8/10mm stud (i think?) but as Ray mentioned there might be to little meat around the stud hole to make 10mm a safe solution.
///Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| Lars S wrote: |
| Pepperbilly wrote: |
The step stud application intrests me alot. Just seems a bit easier to do. Maybe I could do that and if for some reason it does not work out I could go to the EZ Lok solid wall insert? Lars S, you seem happy with your step stud fix.
Bill |
Im no expert on this, always nervous and extremely carful when dealing with the studs...never overtightening the stud nuts etc
The 4 to 5 studs I have replace with the 8/9mm stud has worked well however I dont drive a lot, just summertime cruising but properly done the 8/9 mm stud should be better that the stock 8/8 one since the 9mm has more "grab" surface in the head.
The 1.8 and later bus 2.0 engines came with the 8/9mm solution as stock as an improvement i suppose.
Yes!....I had only seen the 8mm/9mm. A 10mm stud would be ideal!
I also have no looked....but I wonder if one can find .....a metric stud...8mm...with an SAE external thread.
I am not a big fan of doing thread inserts because I like all the extra risk and work. I simply like the result because of the fat outer thread I can get. If I could get that in a step stud....so much the simpler. Ray
There is also an 8/10mm stud (i think?) but as Ray mentioned there might be to little meat around the stud hole to make 10mm a safe solution.
///Lars S |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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It’s just kind of sad that this is happening at all. The guy that rebuilt my heads never mentioned anything about replacing exhaust studs. He has always done wonderful work for me in the past…trusted him. I brought this up to him but he does not want to correct it, only offer advise. I would think there is more responsibility on his part?
Bill |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
It’s just kind of sad that this is happening at all. The guy that rebuilt my heads never mentioned anything about replacing exhaust studs. He has always done wonderful work for me in the past…trusted him. I brought this up to him but he does not want to correct it, only offer advise. I would think there is more responsibility on his part?
Bill |
Type 4 heads are notorious for exhaust stud issues.
The problem comes from several issues:
1 if you look at them is that there is not much depth or material around the base of the studs.
2. The studs are pretty long and get a lot of expansion and contraction stretch and side leverage.
3. With age, the aluminum around the stud threads...what little there is....gets brittle and fatigued from heat cycling alone. This is part of the same issue with valve seat replacement.
This is part of the problem with type 4 heads. In so many BASIC ways....they are just like a type 1 head. BUT....they have a few of their own issues that type 1 heads do not have ....that must be addressed.
Therefore a lot of GOOD cylinder head people who work on VW's...THINK...they are just fine to work on type 4 heads. It will be true that they have the right skills and techniques....but that does not mean that they KNOW what the type 4 specific requirements are that need to be done on a high mileage head.
Example....on a type 1 head....its not SUPER common that the valve seats MUST be replaced. The risk on type 4 is that from heat cycles the metal surrounding the seats loses its memory and must have the interference fit renewed. This is aside from the seat loss issue that buses have from chronic overheating.
Why is this type 4 specific? Because the type 4 heads have very little meat around one side of the seats because of the port design...unlike a type 1. So...they also get les interference fit with standard sat material. Typically about 0.004" minimum to 0.006" maximum interference fit is all they can handle.
On type 1 its also not super common that the valve guides must be replaced. As long as they are within tolerance and appear to be tight, a lot of basic head rebuilders just run them.
The most common problem with type 4 heads...guide wise...is that type 4's (unlike type 1)...can very easily have 125K to 150K on them before they come apart. The guides may not be worn out in the ID...but very commonly they are worn out in the OD and starting to get loose from heat cycling just like the valve seats.
Then we get to the issue of the studs. In my opinion...I always replace the studs with inserts unless teh heads are very clean and low miles. I test every one of them with a double nut and a torque wrench. If they twist out within the same torque that you normally use to torque the nut with...they get replaced.
Why does this method work?
Because...lets say you are putting 18 ft lbs on your exhaust nuts (I cannot remember the torque required off hand).....if you can turn that stud OUT of the had with 18 ft lbs....that also means that you can turn that stud INWARD with 18 ft lbs.
When that happens....the stud bottoms in the bore....and it puts teh excessive load against the threads in the head and tries to JACK the stud out of the hole. If this does not immediately crack the aluminum threads...it sooner or later will.
A lot of head builders may disagree with me ...but the type 4 exhaust studs SHOULD be replaced on a rebuild. Either with a step stud...or an insert.
Ray |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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Spent today mocking up the bumper and the driving lamps.. What you see here is just held by tape and gravity.
I’ve now made the decision not to use the bumper guards. Love the look of the lamps and I also will be using the front license plate. Sooo…now I have to figure out how to make 1 impact strip out of 2. Somehow I will join the strips in the middle…still working on that method.
Bill
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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That is a really fine looking car!
There are not too many that can rock that gold color, but it works perfectly for this body with its large panels. |
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vwfye
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2000
Posts: 7661
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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_________________
64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3" |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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How to deal with the impact strip up front. Thought about it alot because I had to cut 2 NOS strips to make 1. I decided to cut them and not glue them together in the middle OFF the bumper.
To cut them I praticed with different chop saw blades and my old impacts. Found out it was best for a clean perfect cut to use an abrasive masonary blade. Worked very well. This was a one shot deal. No mistakes here. Can’t get these impacts anymore.
The pictures say it all. Came out really good. The middle join I will fill with black silicon or rubber glue and it will look like something the factory did. You will really not notice it.
For the lamps I fabricated some steel angle mounts. I attached them to the rear of the big heavy bumper stiffener. My object here was to create driving lights that appear to float…no mounts to be seen. Looks clean.
It’s been a few productful days now…moving along!
Bill
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Chris Walden
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2010
Posts: 147
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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| So you may have touched on this earlier, but is that the original color? |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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Chris,
Yes, that is the original Maya Gold metallic..just new paint. The match came out very good.
Bill |
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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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Looks great!
AndI still LOVE those golden headlights! ( Though I don't think they would work on Sparkie. ) |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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Back to work on the exhaust stud replacement. Been dreading this.
To do this with the engine in the car I had to gather up some longer tools. I also decided to try the step stud 8 to 9 mm. I bought a 9 mm tap and a long drill bit. This called for a 5/16” bit. The one I got is a bit too long but that’s fine.
It was critical to use Ray’s advice on using the bolted on exhaust manifold as a guide for both drilling and tapping. I measured everything for proper depth and wrapped blue tape as markers..The tap has blue tape because I had to extend it somehow. A 1/4” extension in reverse works pretty snug on the tap, so I secured both with tape. I then used the manifold as a guide again to tap. I felt confident and it worked well! I was able to thread the 9 mm step stud in place using double nuts. I did apply some Loctite red 271. 24 hours later I installed the exchangers and torqued the copper nuts. So far so good.
I also want to thank Lars S for alerting me to the step studs. The help from our members is so greatly appreciated!
Bill
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! |
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Putting the final touches on the engine before start up. I am using WR7CC spark plugs. The box says to gap at .032”. My old school self says .028” because that’s what VW stated. What is best?
Bill |
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