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Wagon progress update…getting closer!
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

The round paper elements can be found at Auto Atlanta. My wagon was a 9/72 production. Here are some dirty before photos… yuck!

Bill

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
The round paper elements can be found at Auto Atlanta. My wagon was a 9/72 production. Here are some dirty before photos… yuck!

Bill

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Oh!....thanks for reminding me!

Another obvious problem with the round paper element air filters that I can tell you.....aided the cracking of the lower case issue.....is that virtually all but about two filter brands did not fit inside properly.

They were a combination of slightly too high and slightly too hard of rubber on the ends.

I have collected over the years, a whole list of companies who originally made replacement filters for this air cleaner....and all but a couple of them fit very badly. The problem was mostly in that raised rubber ring on the ID shown in your picture.

Some of them even bought back in the late 90s...I had to shave off about half of that sealing ring on each side. A few of the brands just flat out were too high and the air cleaner body would require a lot of cranking down on the screw to close the case along with the clips.

This would cause the air cleaner to crush down and distort.

I never broke my plastic one and ai have a spare.....but in most places I would find a round air cleaner...about two out of three would be cracked and I suspect this was part of it.

Just saying beware of the fit issues. If it's tight...either modify the gasket end or do not use it. Don't break your air filter housing.

There have been numerous threads over the years in 412 and 914 forums about the difficulty finding replacement filters. Most have been out of production for some time....and it was ALWAYS difficult finding new filters even in the 1990s. Even in the early 2000s with the internet.

The few that fit well out of the box.....were the Mann filters....until they got to be very old NOS...and by that time the rubber gasket was hard as a rock and would not compress down.

The Deutsche brand filters fit well. The Kneckt brand were too tall. Beck-Arnley were hit and miss. FRAM was one of the worst. Too tall, too fat if gasket and gasket was too hard.

Ray
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

So, back to my MPS issue. Several people have mentioned that there are rebuild kits available now. I was directed to Tangerine racing products by CFR. Is this a good option if I have to replace diaphrams?

Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
So, back to my MPS issue. Several people have mentioned that there are rebuild kits available now. I was directed to Tangerine racing products by CFR. Is this a good option if I have to replace diaphrams?

Bill


Sorry to give you a long answer with a lot of instruction but I have 30 minutes of time and its in my head so I have to get it out..... Laughing

AS far as I know...they are the ONLY manufacturer of the kit. I have actually seen one in person finally that belonged to someone else. They did quite a good job.

For the reference of others:
http://www.tangerineracing.com/mpsdiaphragm.htm

About 10 years ago I made a handful of crimped diaphragms on a handmade (epoxy) die. They were made from 0.005" annealed copper sheet. To install them on the center bushing...on mine....I had to carefully grind off the thin crimp ring and seperate the old plate. Then I used a thin "C" ring and neatly applied JB weld to reattach to the center hub.

In other words I replaced only the copper and recycled all of the rest. They worked quite well. I will have to look to see if I have one installed in one of my MPS.

But...that foray ended when a friend of mine identified the material the original one was made of...as beryllium copper. Totally different animal with a MUCH longer lifespan. I was planning to punch these out at cost to whomever needed one....but when I realized I could not guarantee at least an equal lifespan...I kind of put it on back burner.

I agonized long over my testing the original plates I had vs the ones I made with gram weights and digital indicators etc....even made a crude vacuum jig with the back half of an MPS to see how far a few inches of vacuum would pull each plate. I was testing stiffness.

While the copper plate elasticity/spring is important...its also futile to compare outside of a running unit. The spring rate of the material is far less important that its RANGE of flex when under the considerable force of vacuum.
You really need constant vacuum...from the engine....WITH its pulses...to test the diaphragm. This is not even for adjusting the diaphragm yet. This was just comparing one plate to another to see if I made them close enough.

Not long afterwards I see that Tangerine is making a kit...and that its the proper material and has a new crimped center bushing just like factory. So I did not bother to move forward with my project.

Changing out the copper plate is actually pretty easy.

The gist when replacing these is this:

1. If you have one of the MPS models that does not use rivets but uses screws...great. If not, after you drill out the rivets...or shave the heads off of one side and drive them out with a punch...I have done both....you can go to the hardware store or McMaster Carr and buy nice 3mm machine screws with nuts and washers. These work fine.

I have also drilled and tapped a couple of MPS and used I think 4mm or 5mm cheese head screws so they look almost factory.

2. I mark the two halves of the body so that the unit goes back together the same clock position to each half.
In theory from everything I have seen inside...it should not matter how the rear is clocked to the front. These units are radially symmetrical around the centerline of the stack up inside. But there is enough design and changes over the years that there may be something we do not know with regards to small detail orientation like the outer vents in the back. So I say change nothing from factory orientation if possible.

3. As you remove the parts...lay them out in order in a way where they will not get knocked down dropped and jumbled up. There are only one or two pieces whose order and orientation are critical.

The parts that are critical to keep in the right order with relation to the housing and the copper plate are:

A. the paper gasket because its thickness is a spacer that will change your adjustment.

B. The steel spacer ring that is advertised in that Tangerine racing link.

Yes.....even though that spacer ring is the part that differentiates a 1.7L MPS for Porsche 914, 411 or 412...from an MPS for a 2.0L Porsche 914, I have found that that spacer ring is also already inside of a lot of late build 1.7L MPS....its just on the opposite side of the copper plate where it is not doing the same thing. Its just there.
I "suspect" this was a way of standardizing production of the MPS across a range of engines.

In a late build 1.7L MPS from a 411/412 or 914....if you need to convert that MPS for use in a 914 2.0L, open up the 1.7L MPS and if the spacer ring is there....just move it to the opposite side of the plate. Reassemble and adjust.

4. While you are inside this unit, take the time to clean it well with a fast drying circuit cleaner. It will have some oil and probably some rust spots on the springs.

5. Inspect the aneroid cells in water to make sure they do not leak. It does not matter which side of the aneroid chambers face the screw or the armature rod. They are radial and symmetrical and both sides of the chamber are the same atmosphere and stiffness.

If they leak or are cracked...you can take an aneroid set out of another unit with something like a bad coil and replace it. The aneroid are the same. I tested a lot of them over the years.

6. This is kind of advanced....but if your MPS inner or outer coil read slightly high or just barely in spec for resistance....you can disassemble a little further....lifting the plate away from the front half with the whole armature assembly intact (four screws)...and with hemostats and a pencil soldering iron...reflow the solder at the four wires one by one. This usually fixes the slightly high resistance.

If you are worried about the plug block starting to leak vacuum or covering the solder.....go to an electronics shop (Digi-key is good) and get a small bottle of solvent based dielectric and paint the solder joints and the plastic heat sealed block and let it dry. The solder will never oxidize further or leak vacuum. Put the four screws back in.

7. To simplify all of this, when you remove your old center hex bushing from the old plate...measure the protrusion of both the hex screw bushing and center screw as best you can on both sides of the plate. Count the total number of turns each screw takes to remove it from the original plate so you can install them the same way in the new plate.

It will not be perfectly adjusted this way but will be very close.

These last two pieces I feel VERY strongly about from a LOT of experience:

8. The outer full load stop screw....the big slotted aluminum plug/screw...covered with epoxy. It is an adjustment stop...NOT...just a plug to cover the main adjustment screw inside.

Please do yourself a BIG favor and DO NOT leave that plug epoxied in and unadjusted when you are doing any type of work to the MPS.

You are right now disassembling the MPS and changing parts that WILL change the REQUIRED adjustment of that big 13mm screw covered up by the anti-tamper epoxy.

Out of all of the adjustments inside of the MPS...that outer screw/plug will affect drivability the MOST. You can drive the cars...and most do....with the baseline fuel mixture a little bit rich or lean ...for decades. It can be annoying to start in some weather and you may not get absolute peak power... but most of the time it runs "fine".

BUT....if that outer full load stop screw plug is just slightly off...like 1/4 of a turn....the car can be absolutely miserable to drive...lurching off the line or at shift points and even stalling and surging.

Yes....I get that a lot of those doing a "full-on" factory look restoration want the "LOOK" of complete originality. I can tell you that if I were shopping a very extensive restoration that ran and started... PERFECTLY...PERFECTLY....I would highly appreciate it if I noticed that the epoxy has been carefully and cleanly removed....because it tells me that the restorer of the car went the extra mile....to remove the epoxy and re-adjust the unit PERFECTLY.
This is actually far better for the engine than just running what you got because it looks original and untampered.

A lot of the Porsche guys are bad about this. On one hand I love those guys. They are not afraid to put the right, correct, best quality parts in their cars.

But when they extend that to not adjusting what is required to be adjusted for best running....simply for looks and resale value...or more often because they are slavishly "imitating" the original factory effect because its "factory"..... Laughing ...its more along the lines of when the Russians stole a B-29 and "slavishly" copied every single part and rivet before they returned it to the US.....including a mysterious small aluminum disc held on with two screws on the rear of the plane....which was actually a quicky patch for a bullet hole IIRC with no function....and it appeared on every one of their copies of the plane (The TU-4). Laughing Laughing

You can always very carefully remove the epoxy...and adjust the screw and then re-epoxy it to look just like factory. I can even tell you how to color your epoxy to look yellowish with age. Wink

Second....When you are bench adjusting an MPS....in my experience....it should be plugged into live vacuum from the car. Not just with a hand pump. The hand pump is good enough for setting the MPS up so its close enough to e able to let the engine run and adjust and drive....but really fine tuning cannot be done with a hand pump. You need YOUR engine signature in the vacuum.

The way to proceed is to put a tee in the vacuum line to your spare MPS so the engine can run. Tee the MPS to be adjusted into the line and plug in your Wavetek LCR55 or LCR55A or your DE-5000 LCR. Read the unit and adjust at will. Any of these meters will work.

Ray
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Ray,

Whoa! As you were typing your response I was actually talking with Chris at Tangerine Racing. Sounds like he has quality stuff. He also mentioned if I don't want to deal with trigger points anymore there is a 1-2-3 Electronic distributor solution. Guess it has it's own set of triggers for the injectors. You know anything about this distributor?

Bill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Ray,

Whoa! As you were typing your response I was actually talking with Chris at Tangerine Racing. Sounds like he has quality stuff. He also mentioned if I don't want to deal with trigger points anymore there is a 1-2-3 Electronic distributor solution. Guess it has it's own set of triggers for the injectors. You know anything about this distributor?

Bill


I have never used one but I agree with the concept and a couple of people whose D-jet knowledge I respect....have great things to say about it.

We were talking about it here awhile back:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9428543#9428543

It has no triggers per-se. Its just digital. If you know where in the 360 degree rotation of the distributor shaft the trigger points have to fire, its simple enough to detect the shaft rotation with the same sensor thats doing the ignition signal for spark.

I have great agreement with a concept like the 123...as long as it has a quality build...and you have some control over when and where for spark.

I have to say this....its not that hard enough to correctly rebuild a stock distributor. I am talking strictly the shaft, bushings/bearings etc. And there are some really good and affordable distributor guru's here.

So a worn out (from mileage) distributor.....alone.... is not a good enough reason to go from stock to an aftermarket distributor.

But....rebuilding its mechanical advance system to make it reliable and smooth....or to rebuild/replace the vacuum advance system....and getting the parts to replace vacuum advance units and replace things like worn out distributor cams is getting harder and harder.

Thats an almost good enough reason to switch to an aftermarket distributor by itself.

The stock trigger points...I think are the least reason why one would change to an aftermarket distributor.
Most of the electrical problems that the trigger points suffer from can be corrected by a little diligence. Most are in the connectors...reflow some solder.....clean things up....take care of about 95% of issues.

But the MECHANICAL problems that the trigger points can suffer from......worn trigger point cams....loose cams that chatter.....incorrect timing of trigger point cams because the distributor shifted when you added a Pertronix or other points replacement module....which can be major or minor depending on the brand of module.

That last factor alone can be worth the switch to aftermarket.

But all of those issues taken together.....are a large packet of good things. These are in the first place...reliability issues....accuracy issues.

Starting out....the REAL questions to ask are:

1. Are these distributors a quality build....as good as a good stock distributor to start with. Are the materials good? Is the shaft machined straight?...the basics. I mean...you would not want to replace a well machined properly fitting stock distributor with something crappy. If the new distributor is a better SYSTEM...thats great....but if its poorly made it can negate other benefits.

2. Aside from just being new and therefore not worn out...are there other actually other benefits? Just being a "1:1" replacement is not really enough (for me) is what I am getting at.
I would say YES!

If you can tune...even a small amount....the timing for when in the cycle injection happens....thats a very good thing. If you can do any tuning of when and how much spark advance happens...that is a SUPER good thing.

3. Can D-jet benefit from that spark control? Oh hell yes!

This is one thing I have been saying for a long time.

In all of the VW based D-jet cars.....type 3, 411/412 and Porsche 914....it has been quite clear that the engine design for these "cars" (I am not speaking of the bus and it never had D-jet anyway)....runs better , cooler and with more power...when the compression (and therefore combustion efficiency) is higher.

Right up front the higher compression domed piston 1.7L is just about the best running engine of the bunch. The 2.0 is even better due to displacement, combustion chamber shape, inlet and spark plug angle and improved cam. It could have even used better compression.

And....having at least a basic fuel injection system like D-jet...showed remarkable improvement over twin carbs.

Leaner, better controlled fuel with higher compression= better HP and combustion efficiency.

Where all of these engines that I just mentioned are lacking....is that they have pretty much the same ignition system......and its weak. Its barely adequate. The coil output is too low really for higher compression.

The points are "adequate" for lean burn and higher compression...but just barely. They are fine when they are new...but as they carbonize....it makes significant changes to driveability in a lean burn, tightly tuned...MAP BASED...system.

The two first big changes that really make a difference with D-jet...especially if you are tuning the MPS to give better response than it had with factory tuning.....is to go to a points replacement module (even a basic one)...and go to a higher output coil. HUGE improvement!

But the biggest improvement (once you have those two other improvements)......that all automotive companies and all fuel injection manufacturers have found....is actually controlling ignition timing and advance.

You can see that in the direct progression of fuel injection systems.

D-jet....better than carbs because better basic mixture control and mixing of air and fuel.

L-jet...just a better (in some ways) version of D-jet. But its still basic injection. And within some of its 6+ versions....it got more advanced and accurate...and eventually they got rid of points and went to electronic.

Digifant/Digi-jet.....a variation still of L-jet that had some other advancements in external engine systems....but by digifant 2....they were using electronic ignition with a 55kv coil....and controlling ignition and advance from the ECU.

I could go on all day....but the gist is that you can only adjust fuel mixture so accurately....before you MUST make some changes in the ignition curve to support those fueling changes.

This causes better/smoother combustion...which makes for a better smoother vacuum signature...which will allow further/tighter tuning of fuel.

D-jet is no different in this respect. One of the first milestones to being able to tune the MPS BETTER...is to get rid of points and get a better coil ....and better plugs to go with that combo.

And...by the time you do that and retune the MPS....the accuracy of the spark curve and advance tuning you can do in the stock distributor are the next thing stopping you.

So I would say there are two systems that are worth looking at.
If you want to stay with stock "mechanicals"....rebuild them well and then go to a better coil with a CB black box to get a full programmable curve. Then tune the MPS and spark curve to match.

Or Replace the whole lot with a 123....as long as you get the programmable one. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Ray,

I am inclined to keep the stock distributor and repair the MPS. I have a question in to Chris at Tangerine about the extra tool set and parts one can also order but have not heard back from him yet. The kit includes a hollow hex adjusting tool that apparently you can slide a screw driver thru to adjust the inner screw and adjust the outer at the same time. Do you have any idea about this tool or would I even need such a thing? How do you do this?

Bill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Since I am posting twice in one day...please be sure to red my last response from this morning.

With regard to tuning the D-jet MPS:

As I noted..Brad Anders is probably the deepest source of information and tuning on the system.
As I also noted I have a few disagreements with some of his MPS tuning method. Not that they are not EXCELLENT....and he already knows what the variances are as you notes that each type and version of lCR meter gives different readings....and that you have to correct for altitude.

And his MPS tuning tables that he has published show that he has done a TON of testing and characterization.

But...if you have been reading along for years on the 914world forum , Pelican forums etc....you will realize that the large group of people who have tried to follow exactly his method and tuning tables...have gotten a BROAD range of results from excellent to good to not good to confusing.

This does not say his tuning methods are incorrect or bad. Just the contrary. I feel they are ....the BASELINE.... methodology for tuning MPS. The attention to detail and mapping and note taking are key.

BUT....a big part of the reason why the range of MPS tuning results are varied...when others are "copying" Brad Anders exact methods are because....those other owners...and most D-jet owners.....are kind of skipping over several very important factors that their individual engines and systems bring along with them....and bring a HUGE range of variables to the fuel injection system.

1. Each and every system and MPS is slightly different in it PHYSICAL response....meaning how the parts move inside of the MPS in response to vacuum.
Its NOT electronic per-se....its ELECTROMECHANICAL. Its both.

When you look at the thread in the link I am going to post below and look at the MPS comparison chart you will see what I am saying.

And The electronic response stack up is slightly different as well (wires, connectors, individual circuit boards in the ECU and sensors).

2. AS I have been pointing out...any little engine sub-system can cause the engine to run differently...even outside of and before we get to the actual fuel delivery from the EFI system.

This means that ignition component quality (wear, wires, plugs, rotor and cap), actual ignition timing and advance, camshaft profile if different than stock or wear if it is stock, valve adjustment, compression ratio (detuned Cali car or old worn out high compression 1.7), muffler condition and type (leaks, blockage or maybe a poor flowing Dansk or better flowing Ernst)........then we get into injector condition, fuel pressure, fuel pressure stability, then we get into vacuum leaks and condition.....then we get into voltage supply to the system..............all of these things make a difference in how the engine runs....EVEN BEFORE we get to the fuel injection system performance........and that makes a difference in the vacuum signature....and that makes a difference in the MPS response.....which makes a difference in pulsewidth and response time...which makes further difference in fueling.

3. The "AMBIENT" variations:
Local fuel quality on site for each owner makes a difference. How your car is geared, how you drive it, where and under what conditions make a difference...dynamically.

4. The vacuum signature of your hand pump is nothing like the vacuum signature of your engine. And...no two engines will be exactly alike.



So based on the possible variations above.....the gist I have been getting at is that you while you "CAN"....use Brad Anders exact tables and method to characterize the MPS with vacuum and an LCR meter like a Wavetek or similar......you will only get that characterization to operate the engine....perfectly or even "very well".....about half the time.

This is why I believe and have had better results...in setting the system up properly (mechanical, sealing, ignition, voltage, exhaust etc.).. and with an MPS that has been characterized just to the point where I know it runs enough to drive it and test/adjust.....and work toward best drivability with safe fuel mixture.

Others have found these same methods to work.

Take a look at this thread from about two years ago. At least one of these guys is also using a 123 distributor. They are checking with wideband...but several are doing the driving/tune method and NOT just relying on trying to set up the MPS by LCR table.

Take a look at some of Bleysengs comments....and BeatNavy's comments and graphs....especially his comment about using a vacuum gauge in the cockpit to get a visual idea of HOW the vacuum signature changes with throttle position so you can wrap your head around how and what the MPS responds to and how that correlates to what it does to AFR.
Also....take note of Jeff Bowlsby's comments.

But one thing is clear in these threads.....while yes....these guys understand the critical nature of the middle hex adjuster ring that contacts the inner and outer full load stop....and how that correlates to the start point and change in the graph slope.........they do not seem to grasp......that this is not the ONLY function of that copper plate and hex bushing.

They are NOT looking at it in "REAL TIME"...with a running engine. That copper plate does not always move slowly or stay stationary at one position or setting (unless the engine can hold that setting for throttle and rpm)....so you can track its graph.....all the time.
When you are sitting at a dead stop at idle and crack the throttle to move off....that diaphragm moves super rapidly.......creating one type of "impulse" condition with its resulting enrichment change...and then settles back into the "nuanced" level of movement where you can track it lifting off of the inner stop.

Also.....a little too much attention is being paid to the copper diaphragm as the end all and be all of the enrichment/load function of the MPS. The behavior of the aneroid chamber is just as important if not the main deal. Keep in mind that earlier models of the MPS did not even have the full load diaphragm.

Ray


http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=348044
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Ray,

I am inclined to keep the stock distributor and repair the MPS. I have a question in to Chris at Tangerine about the extra tool set and parts one can also order but have not heard back from him yet. The kit includes a hollow hex adjusting tool that apparently you can slide a screw driver thru to adjust the inner screw and adjust the outer at the same time. Do you have any idea about this tool or would I even need such a thing? How do you do this?

Bill


Oh...absolutely that tool is required. You "could" make one if there were not one available in a kit.

If you have a drill press you could drill out the center of a cheap allen key....but thats harder than it sounds!

I will post a couple of pics later so you understand what tools you need and how the adjusting works.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Hey Lars S,

Just got my book for a father’s day present on the Type 4 by Cranswick. Did not know that your 412 is such a celebrity! Very nice. The book looks well written and informative. Will take a while to finish it.

Bill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Hey Lars S,

Just got my book for a father’s day present on the Type 4 by Cranswick. Did not know that your 412 is such a celebrity! Very nice. The book looks well written and informative. Will take a while to finish it.

Bill


Thanks Bill!
Yes its quite a nice one my 412...(but dont forget too look at my 914 in the same book Dancing )

/Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
Pepperbilly wrote:
Hey Lars S,

Just got my book for a father’s day present on the Type 4 by Cranswick. Did not know that your 412 is such a celebrity! Very nice. The book looks well written and informative. Will take a while to finish it.

Bill


Thanks Bill!
Yes its quite a nice one my 412...(but dont forget too look at my 914 in the same book Dancing )

/Lars S
Love it! Had a feeling that 914 was yours when I first saw it
Bill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

The tool makes separately adjusting the middle hex and the screw independently a breeze.

I cut most of the handle off the thin screwdriver, which enables me to fit the pair into the end of the MPS while it remains bolted in place on my Type 3. Otherwise you have to remove the mounting screws, and that wears out the body holes. You also get some burns from the finagling! Now I just remove the rubber cap, insert the tool pair, and adjust with ease.

I bought the kit for the tool, and now also to have a spare plate for later if needed.

I also bought the 123 distributor, and the build quality looks great. However, the smooth finish on the shaft meant my worn distributor clamp would not hold it tightly, and it slipped. So I put my stock unit back in. I have a newer clamp, and if that holds the 123 tightly, it will go back in.

Adjusting the points to get the gap/dwell right on really puts a strain on that hold down screw on the plate. The fine threads and short length mean it WILL wear out, scrapping the plate and maybe the whole distributor.

I bought the unit with the dozen or so selectable advance curves, not the programmable version. I found a couple of curves that worked, but haven't made a final decision yet.

The stock body harness connector mates with the individual trigger point wires, but it isn't weatherproof. I have a spare worn trigger point set that I may take apart and mold into some kind of sealed connector. The Type 3 engine bay is not sealed so this could become important for longer term reliability.
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

KTPhil,

I went ahead and ordered the MPS repair and the tool kit also from Tangerine. Sounds like the tools make this procedure much easier.

Yeah, I know what you mean about the set screw for the breaker points. My original screw failed when I was going through the distributor months ago. So, I shortened a slightly larger self tapping screw and it works great so far. I am keeping my stock distributor for now. I like stock parts if I can make them work.
By the way, you have a very nice looking fastback! Glad we have the incentive to keep these VWs going.

Bill
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Sorry…double post.

Last edited by Pepperbilly on Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Finally, finally, finally got my straightened and rechromed rear bumper back from the chrome shop. This took 1 1/2 years and 2 shops. The second shop came through with flying colors!

So the first photo shows how these bumpers were manufactured for the type 3 and I believe for the ghia also. You can see the selectable mounting points for the brackets.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



These next two show me setting the rubber impact and marking the attaching screw locations. The impact I sourced from Germany fit perfectly.


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The next 3 photos show something interesting. On the ‘73 wagons the rear light housings were designed narrower. I believe the rear bumper was then raised on the body to tuck in more closely to the lights. Look closely and you can see what I believe are the original height bumper bracket holes, without the captive nuts installed. I believe VW just used that same metal stamped piece from the earlier cars and added a couple of higher holes with captive nuts. Maybe I’m wrong…


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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The rear bumper looks great… sure had to wait for it!

Bill
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Yes!

Going off memory there are three tail light styles. The early 411 had wider and shorter rear lamps. Then there were the middle years that were pretty much 1972 and early to mid 1973 and then there were late 412 mostly 1974....skinny and relocated.

The bumper bracket on yours are pretty unique to late 1973. I do not have a parts list for 1974 where they went to the aluminum crash bumper...so others would have to chime in on what the mount looked like for that model....but I am betting its a two bolt system like the one you have.

The earlier cars used a three bolt, stacked flat mount similar to the front. It used the lower two holes and the rearmost upper hole.

Late 1973 was transitional to 1974 in a handful of little ways. Out side of the bumpers at a glance its hard to tell a late 1973 from 1974.

In my parts book which goes only to the beginning of 1973...it shows no less than 7 tail light part #'s.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

I must be a dreamer or an eternal optimist. Just now checking out my brake master cylinder…just really glossed over it’s condition hoping it would pass muster.

Decided to bench test and bleed it. It did not build up much pressure…some discharge but not consistent. This one is not the original but it was replaced with this FAG unit in the late 80s.


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Went ahead and took it apart. The cylinder bore has NO rust anywhere but I did notice what appeared to be some light rubbing or scoring in places. Looking closely at the piston where the seals reside I could see what appeared to be metal to metal contact (arrows in the photos). How is this possible if my seals were still there and not broken? Also, as I was bench bleeding fluid seeped slowly out the end bore/seal area. No rust though.


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What to do now? I am putting the master back in it’s original location, keeping it stock. I would love to save this cylinder or are there any new things on the market these days?

By the way, the old Blue master cylinder brake hose is NLA. It is now black and is the proper I.D. In the photos the size comparision looks deceiving. Came from WCM.


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Bill
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

I formulated a really long detailed reply about what can be done to get a good working cylinder. I still have that but lets wait a little.

For the moment lets talk about what happened to yours. The FAG units are excellent. As good in every respect as the ATE and in fact also came in cars as OEM.

But...if its from the 1980's....its dead for the same reasons why "most" NOS cylinders are also dead. Disuse.

When the seals of ANY brake master cylinder sit in the bore confined...without regular exercise....the seals take on the shape of the bore as the EPDM rubber hardens up slightly with age. Typically they gain about 10 durometer.

That hardness is not a functional problem. You can run decades on slightly harder EPDM. But if the cup is not being regularly flexed during that hardening up period you get cups that do not inflate with fluid to seal properly or when they do they cannot stay inflated. With slight pedal pressure release you get the "pedal drops to floor" syndrome.

The scrapes on the pistons are indicative of teh cups not inflating and keeping the pistons centered in teh bore.

That being said....the pistons are not hurt at all. Since the pistons do not seal on the bore the small abrasions do nothing. Also, the pistons were in some cylinders of some cars way back when...magnesium.

I am pretty sure that all of these before about 1986 or later production...are solid zinc. They are not hard enough to damage the bore of the cylinder. The lines from the pistons you see in the bore are pretty much the equivalent of pencil marks.

So your pistons are fine and your bore is fine.

In a simple method you "could" simply buy a rebuild kit for a type 3 or beetle 19mm dual circuit master cylinder and steal the cups and flap valves. Throw the pistons away. Just use the seals. You will likely be done in an hour.

Lets check a couple of things though.

1. Disassemble the pistons from their springs so you can inspect the brass flap valves. Make sure there is no corrosion and they are not sticking. That can cause poor replenishment and poor cup inflation and cause this.

2. This is a my "how to" on rebuilding the type 4 brake master cylinder.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679160

Scroll down to the very end and note the modification I made to the plastic fluid inlet elbows. The FAG rubber bushing is slightly worse for holding the elbow dead flat on the cast bottom of the inlet recess...and blocking fluid inlet flow....which can also cause the starvation that causes the u-cups to not inflate.

My normal "go-to" cheap but effective rebuild kit for a type 3 dual circuit, late model master cylinder is the Raybestos MK-514......but I have not seen them available at any of the usual suspects in about 2 years. Usually Rockauto, Summit etc...has them as they fit some beetle, type 3 and thing. I think they are out of production.

They have a minor problem in that they also come with pistons and the seals are already installed. You have to carefully remove them and then install them on your pistons. They come with flap valves, boot and copper washer for the lock screw.

There are some on Ebay but the $75 price tag is stupid. They should never run more than about $40.

There are some on amazon etc.

That being said the Raybestos kit is made to fit both FAG and ATE...because it has a different seal lip profile that works....decently...with the tolerances of both cylinders. I also do not expect to see 100 k miles from that profile...but 50k should be do-able.

My long winded reply was about the issue...that I am TIRED of the master cylinder availability problem with type 4.

This has ALWAYS been a problem in the US. The type 4 master cylinder has the issue that if your car leaks water....its humid inside the car.

The very small amount of fluid that oozes normally from the back of any MC over time....its just a film of fluid really....absorbs this water and rusts like crap...causing...the dreaded rust ridge ...causing outer seal failure...the need to lap or hone....and having to fight to find kits or cylinders.

In the 1990's....no dealers had master cylinders. They could order....and weeks later a dusty box arrives and teh life is short because its nOS.

The dedicated foreign FLAPS (Bap Geon, Beck Arnley, private shops).....in the 90's ...virtually all of their catalogs were incorrect. They thought these cars were type 3 (same issue with ball joints). I cannot tell you how many cylinders I ordered only to have a type 3 cylinder arrive.

I have no operating cylinders for my car. I do not need one yet.....but I am planning to fix the availability issue for myself if none else.

Right now...my car has a super beetle cylinder in it on a specially welded bracket. I will show a picture of that...it worked killer...but I had to totally recalibrate braking pressure. Its not the correct answer. Its all I could get in 2001.

I have been researching seals over the past two years. I think I found a supplier and will finally shortly order some to test. They are not a direct drop in....but are stock items of the right material and with some backing rings etc....they should be as good or better than stock. I will etst that.

As for cylinders....I have been waiting to pull the trigger on nickel plating the bores....and I am about to do that. I already have the chemistry to etch the pistons and re-coat them with trivalent chrome.

The object with the plating is to be able to take the bore back to BEST factory dimension...with a product that is harder than the factory bore...and does not rust. Ray
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update…getting closer! Reply with quote

Hi Ray,

Could I send you a PM regarding this master cylinder?

Bill
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