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Blue Coyote
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Eugene OR
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 Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:34 pm Post subject: Gambugly lost its go |
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Been fighting a lack of power issue now on 2 motors - triple checked everything I can find - read lots of technical threads - so time to ask the Samba experts.
Gambugly is our Gambler500 / HooptieX / off road car.
Started as a beat up $400 69 bug, mostly stock/ 1600sp, 009, Pic30 / Ghia discs, 235’s. Ran down the road just fine, 65mph was easy, seemed like enough power.
Then came the suspension upgrade - 5x5’s, 002 bus box (5.37 ratio), 930s, T3 drums, +10 beam, combos, CNC discs, caged. 700x15 fronts, 31x10.50x15 rears. And could not get it to rev over 3100 rpm in 4th and it was a slug. Went thru every system, all was spot on. Then the motor quickly overheated and was done.
Found a deal on a 2.0 T4 - dual IDF 40s, 009, Petronix, blue coil, full voltage at the coil- new plugs, good wires, timing@ 30, floats@ 10mm, new electric rotary pump @ 3.5psi, new 5/16 plumbing, filters. Compression is 110 to 120. Not 1 single part (mechanical, electrical, fuel) from the 1600 is on the T4.
And it will still not rev over 3100 in 4th and is still a slug. Alignment F&R is 1/16 in, brakes are not dragging. Verified trans ratio (4.4 revs at the wheel in 4th).
Am at a loss on why the T4 has the same issue as the T1 with no common parts, and why the T4 is a slug. What am I overlooking?
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Mikedrevguy
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008
Posts: 2240
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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running out ofFuel? What’s the jetting?
Where’s the timing set?
How fast are you going at 3100 rpm in 4th? (Stock transmission with 31x10.5, at 3100rpm I’m at 73mph)
How hot is this motor getting?
_________________
74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
79 VW Iltis
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
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Blue Coyote
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Eugene OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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| Mikedrevguy wrote: |
running out ofFuel? What’s the jetting?
Where’s the timing set?
How fast are you going at 3100 rpm in 4th? (Stock transmission with 31x10.5, at 3100rpm I’m at 73mph)
How hot is this motor getting? |
Main jet 115, emulsion F11, air 200, Venturi 28
New rotary pump measured at 3.5 to 4.0, occasionally dips to 3.0 when the throttle opens, new 5/16 line.
Timing is 30 all in.
Calculated speed is 61 ish (Bluetooth speedo cable)
1600 got real hot, not willing to risk that with the T4.
Both engines acted like they hit 3000rev limiter in 4th gear, but the T4 will rev to 4500+ in 3rd
Checked the rotor (not the speed limited), and no electrical connections to any of the trans switches) |
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Mikedrevguy
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008
Posts: 2240
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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I’m putting together a 2.0 with 44s choked down with 28mm vents. Starting ballpark jetting given to me is 130 mains, 50 idles. with 200 airs.
_________________
74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
79 VW Iltis
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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115 Mains are pretty lean.... Might run better if a little riches...
What are idles?
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Wulfthang
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2018
Posts: 719
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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Your OP stated that the two motors were totally different from each other with no common parts. That leaves out carb, timing, vac leaks, etc.... all of the common power robbers. That leaves only a few possibilities.
There's something in your engine setup that you're doing wrong and it's common to both engines. You're tuning them both the same and it's wrong.
OR
You missed something when you checked the rest of the car.
Or
It's a gearing issue. It's geared to tall. I don't know what's to tall or not on a VW but this would be my guess.
When I was a kid in one of several tech schools, I learned about gearing ratios and how to follow them from the crankshaft thru all of the gears thru the chain/sprockets to the rear wheel, the Final Gear. (So called because it's the last gear to affect speed)
Anyway, I learned how to calculate gear ratios to find out top speed at redline maximum. So I re-geared my streetbike (My school project) so it would top out at 175mph. The final effect was that it could barely maintain speed in fourth gear and would actually slow way down in fifth gear. That was when I learned about the horsepower required to pull those tall gears.
An easy way to test the idea of a gearing problem, is to beg, borrow or buy a set of smaller wheels/tires. A set of smaller diameter wheels/tires will shorten the overall gearing. They're the Final Gear. |
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Blue Coyote
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Eugene OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
115 Mains are pretty lean.... Might run better if a little riches...
What are idles? |
Here is what I found inside
Main jet 115 - Venturi 28 - Air jet 200 - Emulsion tube F11
Air correct jet 200 - Pump jet 50 - Idle jet 55.
Has 44 series 2 1/4 velocity stacks, 3 1/2” filter- going to order the 40 series 1 5/8 stacks. Drove it with stacks / filters on & off - no change.
Did more reading - seems the mains take over metering airing 2800 - 3000. And the symptoms are consistent with being lean. You can hear the “tone” of the engine change with throttle over 3000 - different noise but no go.
Suggestions on a main jet?? And idle jet? |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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Tall rubber and lean mains is the perfect formula for burnt up engines!
I am running a 1911 type 4 with 31 vents, 132 mains and mid 13s AFR. Some consider that too lean!
Idles by the way have nothing to do with your problem. 55 should be plenty fat, I started with 55s and it was pig rich, down to 47s now.
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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Up the vent and main jetting 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Blue Coyote
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Eugene OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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| madmike wrote: |
| Up the vent and main jetting |
Ordered some 130 and 60 jets from CB - along with some overhaul kits.
Giving the carbs a berryman bath as well.
As for gearing - the old 1600 moved it along fine with 4.12 T1 trans and 235’s (29” tall). Figured the 002 w/ 5.37’s would be better with the 31’s (30” tall) especially with a T4. Have triple checked all the other “power suckers” - tire psi, alignment, brake drag, etc. While the long travel is 10+ inches wider and thus less aerodynamic- can’t believe that is the only issue. And you are right - if it’s not jetting - I have gotten something wrong with the build. |
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Wulfthang
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2018
Posts: 719
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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If you are sure that there are no parts that were used on both engines, then that eliminates any engine problems. Nothing common to both engines? Fuel filter? Carb? Fuel? Plugs? Anything at all?
Nothing dragging? Brakes? Bearings?
No tuning problems? Timing is set right? Not using some "racers trick" tune up info, right?
Then it has to be gearing. It went fine with the old trany but not with the new one. Gearing or something with the new trany anyway! |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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Borrow, beg or steal a wide band to set those carbs up properly.
Yes there is something both engines have in common, an 009 distributor.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Mikedrevguy
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008
Posts: 2240
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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Awesome looking Baja, btw. Good luck getting it squared away
_________________
74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
79 VW Iltis
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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Its a long shot....but...
Fuel?
My rail started running bad one day for no reason....figured out that it was two year old fuel, which runs fine my EFI vehicles because they can adjust trim for low octane levels, but not in a carb which doesn't know any better.
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Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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stevebaz
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 189
Location: El Monte CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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| make sure the gas tank is venting properly. |
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Blue Coyote
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Eugene OR
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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| oprn wrote: |
Borrow, beg or steal a wide band to set those carbs up properly.
Yes there is something both engines have in common, an 009 distributor. |
Great suggestion- and going to go that route. PLX has one the feeds to a smart phone for a good price - still trying to find one in stock some place (other than Long Beach harbor).
Both motors have an 009 - but not the same one. The ONLY shared part was a new Petronix conversation. Verified by timing light it is firing above 3k rpm. But both motors has the same issue even with Bosch points.
Vented tank - new fuel, valve, line, hose, fittings, filters.
Awaiting overhaul kits from CB - carbs “looked” okay inside but a good cleaning and verifying/ baseline-ing everything is next. Found a little green corrosion on the jets / emulsion tubes and some white corrosion on the body- but passages were all open. Have run much uglier parts then these w/o issue (Zuk, VW & Toyota carbs) |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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| Blue Coyote wrote: |
| As for gearing - the old 1600 moved it along fine with 4.12 T1 trans and 235’s (29” tall). Figured the 002 w/ 5.37’s would be better with the 31’s (30” tall) especially with a T4. |
Problem isn’t with the gearing and tire size, 100% certain. My T4 with a 4.83:1 RP and 33” tires has no trouble in 4th gear at all. Yours with 31” tires and a 5.37:1 RP should scoot.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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True enough. I have 3.88 final drive, 28" rubber and this is the top of 4th gear.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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joemama
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1636
Location: La Crescenta, California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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This is a very simple suggestion, but who knows? If you have a stock gas tank, check to make sure the factory "Sock" filter in the fitting at the bottom of the tank is not clogged.
Hope you figure it out. |
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Wulfthang
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2018
Posts: 719
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Gambugly lost its go |
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| So what was the problem? |
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