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Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost
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Costarico
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:23 am    Post subject: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

So, first post please excuse my ignorance and lack of research....

I have acquired a 1970 Bug to rebuild, and want just a general ballpark of the cost to rebuild an engine vs purchasing a rebuilt.

And, who is the go to supplier of rebuilt engines - basically stock setup?

Assume rebuild costs don't include labor, just parts and pieces and typical machining needs.

Thx in advance.
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Brian
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Oh boy that's a loaded question and you're going to get a whirlwind of advise in all directions.

Last I checked, its something like $2k for a long block? Meaning all the mechanical stuff that takes some amount of skill and not all the 'dressings' of engine tin, intake, charging system that you'd reuse from engine to engine.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

if you buy new you'll basically get a 1600 poorly assembled and cost u an arm and a leg.If you rebuild you can pick all your parts and improve the whole enchilada. size of motor compression cam and horsepower.new just get the book out and write a 3000 dollar check
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Cost of doing it yourself depends on your skill level and tools. If you can get it right the first time, yes go for it! You definately can save a buck, particularly true if your engine core is in good condition. If you have a good core engine it might not need very much at all but trade in value is the same as if it needs everything.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

As others have stated, cost and which way to go will be dependent upon your knowledge and skill level. If you have never rebuilt an air cooled engine before, you might be money ahead to have a professional do it for you. Costs a lot to do it twice! I sell rebuilt stock 1600 dual port long blocks for $1899 exchange and that is pretty typical of most reputable builders (within a couple hundred dollars either way). A VAST majority of that cost is parts (about $1300 of it)
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

One thing to ask is which engine is in the 1970 Beetle, Is it a Single Port? In 1971 VW made a lot of changes to the type 1 Engine design basically the Dual Port was the final evolution of the Type 1 however a 1974 or later AH case or whatever Type 1 would be the best to rebuild.
The 1970 and earlier single port Type 1 engines had a steel oil cooler that fit inside the fan shroud and blocked the air flow to the #3, #4 cylinders and head so those early engines had distributors that retarded the ignition on #3 so it wouldn't over heat.
The 1971 and later used a wider and Aluminum oil cooler that was mounted offset in a housing on the back of the fan shroud know as the "Dog House". The #3 is not retarded 1971 on. Dual Port engine cases also have larger oil pick-up tubes oil pumps and oil passages plus they control the oil pressure with a second oil pressure valve located near the flywheel on the bottom of the engine.
Single Port engines can be converted to a dual port with the later "dog house" fan shroud and dual port heads and engine tin & the 71 and later aluminum offset oil cooler etc.. however case work is recommended, ie. Deep insert to number 3 Top stud next to the flywheel as well as inserting all the cylinder studs like vw finally did starting in 1973. Also cylinder studs changed to smaller 8mm cylinder studs. Inserts are available in both the early 10mm as well as the late 8mm, which cylinder studs were best continues to be a topic of much discussion.
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Costarico
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great replies! Much appreciated.

So, I am not an expert by any stretch - never done an air cooled, but I have rebuilt a few engines - mostly simple (Triumph TR6 and old FJ40 Land Cruisers) 6 bangers.

As much fun as it is, engine building is a tad tedious to do it right of course, and I have plenty of work to be done on the bug in general, so hence my interest in alternatives.

The long block solution seems pretty reasonable.

Cheers
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KEGZ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

After everything was machined, I've rebuilt a stock 40 horse by watching one of Chris Vallone's videos on youtube Wink

I don't have the competency to built what I run these days. So I leave it all to Geers and VWP.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Keep doing research. Not sure where you are located. My last engine the VW engine builder did a great job. He told me what to buy and I supplied it...saved on the mark up. Even still cost about 1800 out the door for his labor and everything. What is nice, he has a VW engine dyno and tunes them for performance. Get to here it run before install.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

There are plenty of reputable builders that will swap the longblock for a re-built one.

Plenty of bad builders out there too.

So, do your research before choosing a vendor.
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stanthedog
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

I've done a few acvw engines. water cooled 4's, number of V8's, and a few big diesel's(8-71 detroit. small and big cam cummins and even a big cat.)seems the biggest difference is just the little niggly things like deck height. clearances are similar enough. nice thing about acvw's is they're light. that 8-71's heads alone weigh nearly 100lbs. if yyou know how to rebuild an engine, you can rebuild a vw engine. just remember to pay attention to the niggly details.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

In 2016-2017 I rebuilt the factory 1600cc dual port engine that came with my 1971 Convertible. This was not a blueprinted or race engine, and I kept track of my costs. Machine work at a local VW machine shop was $650, and I assembled the engine I have no idea what such costs would be today.

2016-2017 1600cc DP engine rebuild
$640 engine case measurement, align bore, case savers, main and connecting rod bearings, install gears onto crankshaft, refurbish cylinder heads (included a little welding and tapping for broken cylinder studs), $10 labor to machine flywheel for correct endplay
$3 crankshaft oil seal
$14.50 new gland nut
$11.50 gasket set
$20 new pushrod tubes
$153 Moresa pistons/cylinders/Grant rings
$95 new connecting rods
$23 new lifters
add CB Maxi2 pump/filter, oil filter, oil, 3 round trips to machine shop
so about total $1100 in parts/machining for the 1600cc engine

Additional costs were incurred for some bolt-on parts, like a new electronic voltage regulator, carburetor rebuild kit and solvent, fuel pump rebuild kit.

See Resurrection thread for my 1970 https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=664950esurrection thread for my 1970 https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=664950
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gt1953
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Assisted Mr. Cusser with the install and get it running. His engine runs great too!
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

KEGZ
I live a mile from Chris Vallone's shop and this year could not make the Fall Foliage Cruise. I was able to be at the shop as the Bugs Ghias and Buses came back to his shop for lunch. 6 foot Hero Sandwiches and Italian Food for the 50 cars.

I saw the same video on builds, it has to be perfect if Chris sells it.


OK now to the point. A big discussion was how the prices of our cars is increasing dramatically. 20k is what my insurance company will give me for my bug if totaled, that is 2k more than last year. Chris gets betweek $30k and $80k and has a two year wait.

You have to look at an engine build or any work as an investment.

I went to 3 autobody shops to fix the rust bubbles on my bug $2,500 to fix both sides.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Cusser
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

gt1953 wrote:
Assisted Mr. Cusser with the install and get it running. His engine runs great too!


Yes, he did. Always good/smart to have a helper.

Torquing the gland nut using O'Reilly loaner torque wrench
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Using clutch disc pilot tool
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Jacking up VW high enough to push the engine underneath
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


1600cc DP engine original to my 1971 Convertible, rebuilt, and installed. Rebuilt Brazilian Solex 30/31PICT on an adapter to fit dual port manifold with now-clear heat risers,
vintage German 009 distributor, rebuilt Pierburg fuel pump, CB Maxi2 oil pump/filter
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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heimlich Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Where are you located? There might be a good rebuilder close by.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

I rebuilt my engine (stock 1600 dual port) about two years ago

I had to replace the heads, barrels & pistons, bearings, oil pump and cam. I had to source a NOS VW cam to get the correct gear lash.

All the other parts were refurbished and reused. The case was cleaned and crack-tested, then line bored and thrust cut. The crank was polished and I had all the tins powder coated. I refurbished all the small parts and cleaned up the ancillaries etc.

I needed to buy some extra tools. Some I bought new, some I bought in bundles of used tools. I could have sold them on after and recouped some of the cost but I kept them. I did buy and sell-on an engine stand though. I got most of the cost of that stand back so I effectively rented the engine stand for pennies.

All that worked out roughly the same cost as an off-the-shelf 'long block' from the company who did my line bore and crank polish. (£1,600, give or take).

It actually worked out cheaper than an off-the-shelf long block in real terms though, because my final cost included getting the tins powder coated and the extra tools that I kept.

But don't just make your decision based on financial cost.

If you want to build an engine, and you have the basic skills, then you need to factor in the experience and knowledge gained as a benefit to you. But; bear in mind that the job won't be anywhere near as straightforward as the manuals suggest.

The manuals were written when original parts were common and could be relied upon to work together. You may need to buy reproduction parts and may have to try a few different ones or modify them to get them to work. My build ended up taking almost six months due to problems with repro parts, sourcing replacements and because I had to back-track a couple of times after I relalised that I'd made mistakes
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

I just rebuilding a stock 1600.dual port. When I get home I'll give you some "today" numbers on the cost of parts. Labor cost varies from shop to shop and geographic location.

On the other hand, I've been asked to rebuild a type 4 and told the guy to buy a long block since finding parts is much harder.

Here's some real numbers:

These are new parts - cost $2100 including shipping - average quality
69mm crankshaft - old one had a seized rod and not worth fixing
flywheel - old one was cast
rods
cam
lifters
bearings - main/rod/cam
oil pump
gasket set
pistons/cylinders
heads - old had cracks
pushrod tubes
muffler
pea shooters
gland nut

Machine work: $350
Inspect
soda blast old case
line bore
cut thrust bearing

Rebuild and cleanup - labor - your time
Solex 34PICT-3 carb
Bosch 034 distributor
rocker arms
clean and paint heater boxes
glass bead intake manifold, unclog heat riser, paint center section

Reuse:
alternator
fuel pump
push rods
all engine tin (getting powder painted.. .don't ask)

I'm at 30 hours including the tear down, contacting vendors, ordering parts, cleaning and painting parts and engine assemble to get to this point... a long block.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So to rebuild you're looking at over $2500 in parts, machine work and hours of your time. But then you know what's inside and how it was built.

GEX gets $2000 for the long block plus shipping and $600 core (you pay shipping to them). And it's built like crap.

A vendor in the classified here list a long block similar to mine for $3000. So are the parts the same quality? But at that price how much time are them spending on the build?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Labor to build the engine will add about $1000-1500. To someone who knows what they are doing and has the setup it is not too much work. I figure it like this, 10-15 hours at $100-150 per hour.

Cost for all engine parts- I see $2000-3000 depending on how much used stuff you buy, what you start with, how smart you are with spending, etc. Cost can vary for machine work and due to availability of used parts, or even new ones, and depending on where you live too.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild vs Buying New Engine Cost Reply with quote

Truth is, when we do it ourself and want to build it as careful as we can, be honest, we have 40-50 hours at minimum in our own builds.
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