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Mckinleyvillian
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Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap.SOLVED |
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Ok, I got a little too confident over in things you did to your van today....
swapped head, new gaskets/water jacket (victor reinz). seemed to torque everything properly. My buddy who has done at least 15 head swaps on 1.9 engine, helped/did most of it. Seems like everything was up to spec. Until today when we went to add water in lieu of coolant to flush system.
Instantly, like engine running for less than 60 seconds and adding water to cooling system, dipstick is covered in the dreaded white mayonnaise looking gunk.
noticeable things
-oil pressure light on (this was not on before swap, have driven 1000 miles, sea level to 3500 feet)
-white smoke out of exhaust
-instant mayonnaise status engine oil
-when swapping head and torquing head nuts to spec, bolts seemed to rotate backwards a hair following max torque. (torque wrench is up to spec. just used for a diesel vanagon head swap last week)
-head was good. no cracks. came off a clean 1.9
We are gonna pull the head this weekend and give it a good run over. inspect everything.
Wondering if maybe the metal rings slipped out of place allowing coolant into the combustion chamber?
Pretty puzzled. Any thoughts/help/suggestions are wicked appreciated.
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so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
85 Vanagon GL 1.9 stick |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4795
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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with as quickly as this happened, it should be fairly easy to trace. here's some things to try:
- with the spark plugs out, pressurize the cooling system (plumb full make sure) to 15 psi thru the nipple on the blue cap, ground the ignition coil, and every 10 minutes or so hit the starter while observing the engine. might get a whoosh of water/coolant out of the offending cylinder.
- if that doesn't reveal anything, sorta do the reverse and make a spark plug thread to air hose adapter and pressurize each cylinder one at a time, make SURE the piston is at the bottom of the stroke and i'd take the valve train off for simplicity. you COULD do this at the top of the compression stroke, without removing the valve train, but the piston has to be on exact TDC otherwise it will roll the engine so have it in gear and someone stepping on the brakes. hit it with 150psi air and listen/watch in the pressure tank for bubbling.
- you haven't by chance added an oil cooler from a 2.1 have you? suspect if so.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Mckinleyvillian
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
with as quickly as this happened, it should be fairly easy to trace. here's some things to try:
- with the spark plugs out, pressurize the cooling system (plumb full make sure) to 15 psi thru the nipple on the blue cap, ground the ignition coil, and every 10 minutes or so hit the starter while observing the engine. might get a whoosh of water/coolant out of the offending cylinder.
- if that doesn't reveal anything, sorta do the reverse and make a spark plug thread to air hose adapter and pressurize each cylinder one at a time, make SURE the piston is at the bottom of the stroke and i'd take the valve train off for simplicity. you COULD do this at the top of the compression stroke, without removing the valve train, but the piston has to be on exact TDC otherwise it will roll the engine so have it in gear and someone stepping on the brakes. hit it with 150psi air and listen/watch in the pressure tank for bubbling.
- you haven't by chance added an oil cooler from a 2.1 have you? suspect if so. |
have not added an oil cooler from 2.1 unless PO did it, but it seems pretty stock excluding the shitty exhaust I pulled off.
I'll have to try this thanks
_________________
so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
85 Vanagon GL 1.9 stick |
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Mckinleyvillian
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Full story?
Why were you putting on new heads?
Dave |
new head was going on due to a crack near exhaust stud in old one. compression was good and all that. literally only had to put a new head on due to that crack.
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so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
85 Vanagon GL 1.9 stick |
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JDub113
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Joined: June 08, 2009
Posts: 758
Location: Reno
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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Must be a displaced O ring? I知 curious what you find out.
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4795
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| JDub113 wrote: |
| Must be a displaced O ring? I知 curious what you find out. |
there's two o-rings.. the black block to cylinder o-ring which does exclude coolant from oil, and the green top o-ring which doesn't do squat and can actually be left off. in theory, it keeps coolant away from fire ring, which has to seal about 1500psi anyway so whatever.
he is reporting 'white smoke' exhaust which speaks fire ring seal problems, irregardless of the black or green o-ring. or it could be a cracked cylinder, unlikely. my donut wager is on a slipped or missing fire ring.
if only one head was done, and there's white smoke signaling a papal decision, the head's gotta come off.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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It should go without saying but you did have the oil drain plug OUT during the work, or you at least changed the oil before starting the engine after the work?
Mark |
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Mckinleyvillian
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Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
| JDub113 wrote: |
| Must be a displaced O ring? I知 curious what you find out. |
there's two o-rings.. the black block to cylinder o-ring which does exclude coolant from oil, and the green top o-ring which doesn't do squat and can actually be left off. in theory, it keeps coolant away from fire ring, which has to seal about 1500psi anyway so whatever.
he is reporting 'white smoke' exhaust which speaks fire ring seal problems, irregardless of the black or green o-ring. or it could be a cracked cylinder, unlikely. my donut wager is on a slipped or missing fire ring.
if only one head was done, and there's white smoke signaling a papal decision, the head's gotta come off. |
that's what we're thinking. my buddy said that every single time he worries about those things not seating properly.
oh well. gonna pull head tmrw morning I reckon and see what's cooking on Friday.
thanks
_________________
so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
85 Vanagon GL 1.9 stick |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:43 am Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| Mckinleyvillian wrote: |
| DanHoug wrote: |
| JDub113 wrote: |
| Must be a displaced O ring? I知 curious what you find out. |
there's two o-rings.. the black block to cylinder o-ring which does exclude coolant from oil, and the green top o-ring which doesn't do squat and can actually be left off. in theory, it keeps coolant away from fire ring, which has to seal about 1500psi anyway so whatever.
he is reporting 'white smoke' exhaust which speaks fire ring seal problems, irregardless of the black or green o-ring. or it could be a cracked cylinder, unlikely. my donut wager is on a slipped or missing fire ring.
if only one head was done, and there's white smoke signaling a papal decision, the head's gotta come off. |
that's what we're thinking. my buddy said that every single time he worries about those things not seating properly.
oh well. gonna pull head tmrw morning I reckon and see what's cooking on Friday.
thanks |
You know my affection for Hylomar by now.
Why it isn't the best selling automotive sealant instead of a difficult to locate specialty item, I'll never understand........
Anyway........
When I did my 86 2.1 back in 2015, I did a lot of research on various sealants for the various head surfaces.
I concluded that Hylomar would seal the fire ring.
It did. (It still is sealing today in late 2021)
When I recently redid my 90 2.1 I again read up to see what if any products might have changed......... they didn't ......... but I found a blog by 10c describing how he now uses Hylomar to seal the fire rings on the engines he builds.
He uses the aerosol type, I smear it on....... it worked again for me and I'm guessing Chris has had few if any come backs!
https://intrepidoverland.com/the-fire-ring-cure/
Not only does it seal the fire ring........ it holds the ring
in the head during assembly.
It was nice to have "big name" verification that my product selection those many years ago was a good choice!
Dave
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Ghia
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Mckinleyvillian
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:09 am Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Mckinleyvillian wrote: |
| DanHoug wrote: |
| JDub113 wrote: |
| Must be a displaced O ring? I知 curious what you find out. |
there's two o-rings.. the black block to cylinder o-ring which does exclude coolant from oil, and the green top o-ring which doesn't do squat and can actually be left off. in theory, it keeps coolant away from fire ring, which has to seal about 1500psi anyway so whatever.
he is reporting 'white smoke' exhaust which speaks fire ring seal problems, irregardless of the black or green o-ring. or it could be a cracked cylinder, unlikely. my donut wager is on a slipped or missing fire ring.
if only one head was done, and there's white smoke signaling a papal decision, the head's gotta come off. |
that's what we're thinking. my buddy said that every single time he worries about those things not seating properly.
oh well. gonna pull head tmrw morning I reckon and see what's cooking on Friday.
thanks |
You know my affection for Hylomar by now.
Why it isn't the best selling automotive sealant instead of a difficult to locate specialty item, I'll never understand........
Anyway........
When I did my 86 2.1 back in 2015, I did a lot of research on various sealants for the various head surfaces.
I concluded that Hylomar would seal the fire ring.
It did. (It still is sealing today in late 2021)
When I recently redid my 90 2.1 I again read up to see what if any products might have changed......... they didn't ......... but I found a blog by 10c describing how he now uses Hylomar to seal the fire rings on the engines he builds.
He uses the aerosol type, I smear it on....... it worked again for me and I'm guessing Chris has had few if any come backs!
https://intrepidoverland.com/the-fire-ring-cure/
Not only does it seal the fire ring........ it holds the ring
in the head during assembly.
It was nice to have "big name" verification that my product selection those many years ago was a good choice!
Dave |
thanks for your input.
would you think the reinzoil sealant that comes with the victor-reins gasket sets could serve the same purpose?
_________________
so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
85 Vanagon GL 1.9 stick |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Mckinleyvillian
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Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Got me?
I take those tubes of Goo and trash them upon opening the kits. I opt for 21st Century sealants.
I imagine if it worked on the fire rings, Chris wouldn't be spending the money on cans of Hylomar though.
Dave |
you use hylomar on all gasket/seal points? again, appreciate your input
ALSO, I'm seeing varieties of hylomar. What specific product do you recommend?
_________________
so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
85 Vanagon GL 1.9 stick |
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djkeev
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Mckinleyvillian
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:44 am Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I use hylomar blue.
I use it on almost anything that I don't want to leak. Orings, gaskets, etc. it works for gasoline as well so when I reseal a fuel tank? The sealing points gets Hylomar.
Doesn't harden, cleans up easily........
I don't use it on the other head seal points though. I depend on tougher stuff. |
sweet thanks!
dog gone fire rings. at least I'll know this thing in an out when we're back at it!
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so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
85 Vanagon GL 1.9 stick |
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djkeev
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Mckinleyvillian
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2021
Posts: 506
Location: Macktown, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I pretty much took my sealing cues from Ben's Place.
The tube of Goo included in the kit? ....... instant trash.
I left him on the fire rings though and use Hylomar.
The ECK is an anti seizing paste.
A screenshot of his page
And a pile of sealants for heads......
Dave |
sweet. thanks again, my friend. hope you get to eat some good food today. west coast dinner doesn't start for a few hour hours, so I'm crawling under in just a few
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so many roads i know
all i want is one to take me home
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wcdennis
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Joined: July 20, 2004
Posts: 955
Location: Winston-Salem NC
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| Mckinleyvillian wrote: |
-when swapping head and torquing head nuts to spec, bolts seemed to rotate backwards a hair following max torque. (torque wrench is up to spec. just used for a diesel vanagon head swap last week)
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This makes me think you ran out of threads before the heads were getting fully clamped. The nuts should not be loose enough to spring back. |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4795
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| wcdennis wrote: |
| Mckinleyvillian wrote: |
-when swapping head and torquing head nuts to spec, bolts seemed to rotate backwards a hair following max torque. (torque wrench is up to spec. just used for a diesel vanagon head swap last week)
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This makes me think you ran out of threads before the heads were getting fully clamped. The nuts should not be loose enough to spring back. |
great observation. run a bottoming tap down into the head nut to clean it out. then be sure to true the nut surface with some 600 grit, a bit of oil, and a flat plate. use a sealant that remains plastic and dump the yellow schmoo for sealing under the head nuts. head nut sealing wasn't your issue but is good detail to attend to.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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jberger
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Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: help! INSTANT failure. water in oil after head swap. |
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| wcdennis wrote: |
| Mckinleyvillian wrote: |
-when swapping head and torquing head nuts to spec, bolts seemed to rotate backwards a hair following max torque. (torque wrench is up to spec. just used for a diesel vanagon head swap last week)
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This makes me think you ran out of threads before the heads were getting fully clamped. The nuts should not be loose enough to spring back. |
FWIW, I have had head studs twist back on both WBX and Air-cooled builds. For sure verify you are not binding threads but twist is "normal".
J |
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