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Full flow without external cooler??
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RandyV
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:55 am    Post subject: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

So back in the day.....my 2007cc hot street motor putting out roughly 150hp on 9.0:1 CR.....I ran a doghouse cooler, 1.5qt sump and screen filter.....that's it.

Admittedly....I never ran a decklid....but in building similarly 30 years later, it appears everyone runs external coolers with fans and spin on filters.

My reservation is that I hate running lines (every joint is a chance to leak) and it's so much simpler keeping everything on board. Now I'm not opposed to running a filter these days.....but any chance doghouse + sump is enough to keep things cool enough?

(FWIW, Berg's old mantra was that if you need an external cooler, your cylinders/heads are too hot and external oil coolers don't address that problem)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Just run a filter pump, will limit your choices on a exhaust that will clear it. No oil lines.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

I'm considering one for piece of mind, as my car generally never goes above 200° unless I spend much time above 75-80 on the freeway, and even then it rarely goes over 220°. Around town I rarely break 180° unless I'm running around being speedy speed boy, but it's usually around ~160° or so. Summertime commuter traffic may be a different story? The only time I think I might need one is 100° days and high speed for trips. I suppose I could simply slow down, but where's the fun in that Wink

(note, I do not thinkthese temperatures are bad whatsoever- just keeping in mind future additions or situations!)

To do it right isn't too tricky- Oil thermostat to bypass the cooler until the oil is actually hot, and even then a lot of the available thermostats need the element swapped to actually let the oil get hot. Then you need a switch to trigger the fan, at a bit higher temperature than the thermostat. You then run the fan off of a relay, and you could put in a manual override switch to also bypass the relay if it ever fails or you simply want to run the fan.

You can always set up a basic full flow filter, and later add a mocal or derale sandwich adapter to runt an external filter if you find you need it.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Dan Ruddock wrote:
Just run a filter pump, will limit your choices on a exhaust that will clear it. No oil lines.


I assume you mean the spin on filter adapters that go on the pump (as a pump cover/spin on filter combo)???

I wouldn’t mind a short run to a filter adapter if necessary, just trying to minimize the spaghetti if possible. (I see some simple ones that can be out of the way).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Could bump the doghouse out to accommodate a T4 cooler?
And then full flow as you would.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Lingwendil wrote:
I'm considering one for piece of mind,


Same. Except for peace of mind and not actual brain matter. Surprised

Modern cars have hoses galore. What's the harm in having a couple more braided lines in addition to your breather setup? Do you not already run hydraulic fluid in your brake lines? It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Could bump the doghouse out to accommodate a T4 cooler?
And then full flow as you would.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

I'm going to agree with Berg on this one (for the post part). Well-built engines shouldn't generate a lot of waste heat, whatever the displacement.

I didn't bother to include an external oil cooler when I converted mine to full flow. I didn't bother to add a deep sump, either. And I'm glad I didn't.

The only reason I can see for adding extra oil coolers is if you spend a lot of time at high speeds on the freeway, or if the engine spends a lot of time at abnormally high RPM, or if you live near the Mojave during the summer.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Going to a T-4 cooler will help but not that much. Actually T-4's run so cool that I tell guys with T-4 upright conversions to extend the doghouse to fit the T-4 cooler is not needed for T-4 engines in the 2000cc range. They can run a T-1 cooler

I do tell them to run a 90 c thermostat in place of an 80c This way it allows the engine to get hotter and the vent open later.

Saying that make sure you are running an 80c so they open sooner.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Floating VW wrote:
I'm going to agree with Berg on this one (for the post part). Well-built engines shouldn't generate a lot of waste heat, whatever the displacement.


So you’re saying an engine isn’t well built if it has high static compression? I know people running 10.5:1 on the street. Do you think the extra cooling isn’t justified?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Going to a T-4 cooler will help but not that much. Actually T-4's run so cool that I tell guys with T-4 upright conversions to extend the doghouse to fit the T-4 cooler is not needed for T-4 engines in the 2000cc range. They can run a T-1 cooler

I do tell them to run a 90 c thermostat in place of an 80c This way it allows the engine to get hotter and the vent open later.

Saying that make sure you are running an 80c so they open sooner.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Heat build up is relative to how much power your making also. Bergites running less then 9;1 compression on their low horsepower street engines wont need much at all for cooling.

But if your making power, temp will build just driving, not even on the gas. I am with you, i hate un-neccesary oil lines also. And all too many vw guys have cheap braided line that is merely stainless braid over rubber lines with cheezy fittings.

If you get real teflon lines stainless an lines with real crimped factory style ends then its the good stuff, and will last forever and not leak.

All that said, I run 10.4:1 compression and no external cooler. I do have a 3 quart sump and standard filter with short lines as filter is just mounted to header bracket. In summer, temp rises real fast after a few blips, but it does come down with some easy driving, and lots of oil to circulate the heat.

If i was gonna drive for hours on end during the summer, i would absalutely do a external cooler, but would spend whatever it takes to get hoses that last. no leaking oil lines all over like many cheap vw guys.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

KEGZ wrote:
Floating VW wrote:
I'm going to agree with Berg on this one (for the post part). Well-built engines shouldn't generate a lot of waste heat, whatever the displacement.


So you’re saying an engine isn’t well built if it has high static compression? I know people running 10.5:1 on the street. Do you think the extra cooling isn’t justified?


I don’t think it’s that so much as saying that you’re creating heat at the cylinder and head and that’s why your oils getting hot so cooling your oil is not going to change how Hot your engine is actually getting which is where it should be addressed and not at the oil.

According to Berg……

Again, my suggestion is that you solve the overheating problem of the engine, which is causing the oil to overheat. After all, if your Chevy was overheating it�s unlikely that you would put an extra radiator on its roof, so why put a bandage on your elbow for the sore on your knee to fix your VW? The only thing that can cause overheated oil is an overheated head. Even if you cool the oil, the head temperature is still running far beyond normal, as you never fixed the source of the overheating problem. I have never experienced any overheating of any engine with the correct CR, carburetion, timing, distributor, and proper octane fuel regardless of HP output even 200 HP daily driven.
If you absolutely must hang a cooler on your car, ADD IT to a full flow system (remember, full flow comes directly from the pump) and maintain the original stock oil cooler. Do not substitute it for the original.


Not necessarily gospel but I’m looking to do this on approx 150hp @2100cc’s and I think it’s doable (heck I know it is cuz I did it 30 years ago)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

Might as well get some braided lines and run the filter off the bumper bracket.
At least if you need to add a cooler you're already set to go.
I'm not a fan of the filter pump setup, to close to the exhaust IMHO.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
vw guys have cheap braided line that is merely stainless braid over rubber lines with cheezy fittings.
....like many cheap vw guys.


Cheap? Like mofoco 050s? Not once but TWICE?
Cheezy? Like checkered floor tiles? Very Happy
jus fkn with you jpaul.. lol

I guess the bottom line is if you don't want to, then don't.
I have over $6k invested in my crankshaft and set of heads alone. I'm going to protect my investment by regulating my oil temps with the cooler/thermostat or two.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

RandyV wrote:
KEGZ wrote:
Floating VW wrote:
I'm going to agree with Berg on this one (for the post part). Well-built engines shouldn't generate a lot of waste heat, whatever the displacement.


So you’re saying an engine isn’t well built if it has high static compression? I know people running 10.5:1 on the street. Do you think the extra cooling isn’t justified?


I don’t think it’s that so much as saying that you’re creating heat at the cylinder and head and that’s why your oils getting hot so cooling your oil is not going to change how Hot your engine is actually getting which is where it should be addressed and not at the oil.

According to Berg……

Again, my suggestion is that you solve the overheating problem of the engine, which is causing the oil to overheat. After all, if your Chevy was overheating it�s unlikely that you would put an extra radiator on its roof, so why put a bandage on your elbow for the sore on your knee to fix your VW? The only thing that can cause overheated oil is an overheated head. Even if you cool the oil, the head temperature is still running far beyond normal, as you never fixed the source of the overheating problem. I have never experienced any overheating of any engine with the correct CR, carburetion, timing, distributor, and proper octane fuel regardless of HP output even 200 HP daily driven.
If you absolutely must hang a cooler on your car, ADD IT to a full flow system (remember, full flow comes directly from the pump) and maintain the original stock oil cooler. Do not substitute it for the original.


Not necessarily gospel but I’m looking to do this on approx 150hp @2100cc’s and I think it’s doable (heck I know it is cuz I did it 30 years ago)


No, I get it. What I was trying to convey was some motors are purpose built and naturally run so much hotter. Precision, balanced, and blueprinted, they still need extra cooling. I'm running squishy pistons, e85, and 40lbs of boost. The first two should be enough but the $500 cooler is there for insurance.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

QRP wrote:
Might as well get some braided lines and run the filter off the bumper bracket.
At least if you need to add a cooler you're already set to go.
I'm not a fan of the filter pump setup, to close to the exhaust IMHO.


Ya, plus I don't want too tight. I like the bumper bracket mount idea & in truth I'd be running more oil and more external travel than I did 30 years ago.

Heck....I really like the old Oberg idea of a finned filter housing that can do some double-duty cooling & filtering but I guess that idea faded?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

KEGZ wrote:
jpaull wrote:
vw guys have cheap braided line that is merely stainless braid over rubber lines with cheezy fittings.
....like many cheap vw guys.


Cheap? Like mofoco 050s? Not once but TWICE?
Cheezy? Like checkered floor tiles? Very Happy
jus fkn with you jpaul.. lol

I guess the bottom line is if you don't want to, then don't.
I have over $6k invested in my crankshaft and set of heads alone. I'm going to protect my investment by regulating my oil temps with the cooler/thermostat or two.


ohhhhhhh........Did I strike a nerve with the cheap braided cooler line comment? Are you someone running the cheap earls fittings with the fake braided "look" lines and took offense? if so, thats good, get some real lines and run any cooler. Thats the point of the comment. Match your cooler lines to that crank and heads.

My Mofoco 050s I did right and i have over 2k in each set doing a nice job making them run perform the way I want, and to do something not many do. Like vw's, its unique to make some decent power out of them. Nothing cheap about those heads when done nicely, and no regrets there. Anyone can go fast with cb heads. Or if you one of those that cant figure out how to go fast, just add boost to whatever engine u got in front of you. Very Happy

Yes the floors were cheezy, they got remodeled years ago.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

No, my shit doesn’t leak. Never has. And I had oil lines up to the manifold to provide heat so it doesn’t ice. And I’ve gotten my lines from a local industrial supply so I didn’t even consider you were referring to me. My response was in a way that a lot of people on these boards think their shit don’t stink. Tryhards who justify in their own heads that what they do and what they say is the only way. And it’s alot of times opinion with no science to back it up or no actual real world experience. For instance, even the cheapest of steel braid synthetic rubber lines won’t leak if you install them correctly. Yet you stepped all over the folks who use them. Economical doesn’t necessarily mean cheap. And I commented while I don’t even fit that category. But then again, I was just fkn with you. Wink

Mofoco 050s are cheap af, bro. But the insanity didn’t stop there. Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Didn’t you drop a thread about them moaning about improvements? “No regrets there” my ass Razz .You got fooled twice, man. I’m sorry. Can’t polish a turd let alone two sets. Don’t forget to greet Adrian at headflow this xmas. Cuz you owe him a great deal of gratitude.

You got one thing right. Most of my projects through the years not restricted to VWs wound up with some form of forced induction and/or nitrous.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? Reply with quote

KEGZ wrote:
No, my shit doesn’t leak. Never has. And I had oil lines up to the manifold to provide heat so it doesn’t ice. And I’ve gotten my lines from a local industrial supply so I didn’t even consider you were referring to me. My response was in a way that a lot of people on these boards think their shit don’t stink. Tryhards who justify in their own heads that what they do and what they say is the only way. And it’s alot of times opinion with no science to back it up or no actual real world experience. For instance, even the cheapest of steel braid synthetic rubber lines won’t leak if you install them correctly. Yet you stepped all over the folks who use them. Economical doesn’t necessarily mean cheap. And I commented while I don’t even fit that category. But then again, I was just fkn with you. Wink

Mofoco 050s are cheap af, bro. But the insanity didn’t stop there. Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Didn’t you drop a thread about them moaning about improvements? “No regrets there” my ass Razz .You got fooled twice, man. I’m sorry. Can’t polish a turd let alone two sets. Don’t forget to greet Adrian at headflow this xmas. Cuz you owe him a great deal of gratitude.

You got one thing right. Most of my projects through the years not restricted to VWs wound up with some form of forced induction and/or nitrous.


The oil lines are a non compromise in my eyes. Do them right or dont do them. Running oil outside the engine better be like brake lines or anything else as far as quality of the fitting. Sorry your butthurt over me calling out oil line garbage.

Same as the Mofoco heads, I didnt regret anything as i knew from the start i needed to order them bare and sent them to Adrian to get them done right. Cheap? 700 is normal price for complete heads, they are not any cheaper then any others. Now the money to get the kind of performance I wanted is a different story. You didnt read any of the thread, you took a quick look and thought you knew, similar to your other posts. Quick to respond huh? lol. That thread is not for me, its for the many others that got complete heads that didnt work, and wanted to find ways of making do with what they had. Not everyone chose to buy bare heads and send them to Adrian as I have.

Regarding Adrian at Headflowmasters, I been doing business with him for 20 years, I treat him very well. Your only half hour away from him right? Say hi yourself, hopefully he can keep income flowing in and stay in business.
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Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.
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