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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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 Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Randy,
Sorry for hi-jacking.
For your full flow lines, if you get some, here is one example, as mine have been on for 2 years and abused pretty hard with heat cycles and still no leaks. Quarter mile passes with no belt and some really hot oil temps also. Removed and installed a few times, no marks on the an sealing faces like removing the aluminum fittings and re installing hoping they seal.
Stainless ends, stainless an fittings, no aluminum at all.
You can always do the filter only, then later if you have overheating problems add the cooler later.
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KEGZ
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021
Posts: 288
Location: Whales Vagina
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Your only half hour away from him right? Say hi yourself, hopefully he can keep income flowing in and stay in business. |
Actually, he burned me and several others (that I know of) pretty hard. I'll spare the details but the SCORE off-road folks are especially sore at him. He's ten minutes away but I drive all the way up to Ontario for machine work these days. |
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RandyV
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 357
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
Randy,
Sorry for hi-jacking.
For your full flow lines, if you get some, here is one example, as mine have been on for 2 years and abused pretty hard with heat cycles and still no leaks. Quarter mile passes with no belt and some really hot oil temps also. Removed and installed a few times, no marks on the an sealing faces like removing the aluminum fittings and re installing hoping they seal.
Stainless ends, stainless an fittings, no aluminum at all.
You can always do the filter only, then later if you have overheating problems add the cooler later.
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Ha ha....no worries! Flame wars are always entertaining to me anyway!
I think I'm onboard with trying external filter first and then see how things look from there. I'm running similar to you with my motor as cam will run right around .500" lift and no desire to shift 7K+ anyway.
On similar thought.......how does your 4.12 and 1.14 4th work for daily driving? (I had similar back in the day...*but* with a 5th gear) 30 years later, I'm going to try to spread things out so I don't have to shift so much bt can still go 70mph on the freeway & hopefully still have 4 nice-driving gears.
Oh....P.S. --- What kind of filter mount setup is that? (Hard to see exactly where it's at and how it's mounted but looks nice) |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| KEGZ wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
| Your only half hour away from him right? Say hi yourself, hopefully he can keep income flowing in and stay in business. |
Actually, he burned me and several others (that I know of) pretty hard. I'll spare the details but the SCORE off-road folks are especially sore at him. He's ten minutes away but I drive all the way up to Ontario for machine work these days. |
I hear ya, im sure there are 2 sides to this story if he was here to share his side as well. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| RandyV wrote: |
Ha ha....no worries! Flame wars are always entertaining to me anyway!
I think I'm onboard with trying external filter first and then see how things look from there. I'm running similar to you with my motor as cam will run right around .500" lift and no desire to shift 7K+ anyway.
On similar thought.......how does your 4.12 and 1.14 4th work for daily driving? (I had similar back in the day...*but* with a 5th gear) 30 years later, I'm going to try to spread things out so I don't have to shift so much bt can still go 70mph on the freeway & hopefully still have 4 nice-driving gears.
Oh....P.S. --- What kind of filter mount setup is that? (Hard to see exactly where it's at and how it's mounted but looks nice) |
For the hoses, in case you wanted to do similar and place a order with a hydrolic hose company that makes them up:
Stainless teflon braided, One 6-7/8 or 7 inch hose, and One 9-7/8 or 10 inch hose. (some differences in engines)
8an with swivel straight female stainless ends.
4 stainless fittings. 3/8 npt male/8AN Male
Remote filter mount like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/181287366396
Empi 00-9245-0
Header filter mount. I put a thick peice of gasket material between the bracket and the filter mount so it doesnt transfer much heat.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154335379898
Empi 16-8241-0
Regarding the gearing, its really geared for more cam, I could be geared more freeway friendly and it would be better and still pull well. |
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King_vw61
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Randy has the luck of living in Ontario,chino area 10 min. from G and J aircraft and they do awesome lines. Like mine.
I have the mount under the fender on the bumper bracket, Cb sells a nice stainless one. I did have the one paul is running and I liked it, but felt like changing it for some reason.
First set up
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12699
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| RandyV wrote: |
So back in the day.....my 2007cc hot street motor putting out roughly 150hp on 9.0:1 CR.....I ran a doghouse cooler, 1.5qt sump and screen filter.....that's it.
My reservation is that I hate running lines (every joint is a chance to leak) and it's so much simpler keeping everything on board. Now I'm not opposed to running a filter these days.....but any chance doghouse + sump is enough to keep things cool enough? |
Why run an extra cooler if it's not needed? Anything left off won't fail or leak. Go ahead and run just a filter, I have done that and continue to. Mind you it's on smaller engines but even with a bigger engine the temperature it reaches is directly linked to how hard you push on the loud peddle. Just watch the oil temp gauge and it will tell you if you need more oil cooling.
An added sump by the way does little to nothing for oil temps. It just lets you run a few seconds longer if there is a major oil leak... and extends your oil change intervals.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12699
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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As for the peeing match about oil lines... A cold engine reaches what? 100 to 120 psi at the most in the middle of winter for a few minutes? If your oil lines are rated for double that and are oil compatible you are golden! 3000 to 5000 psi hydraulic hoses and fittings that I see used so often are over kill big time and are only good for bragging rights to an audience that doesn't have a clue...
Dad and I ran brass barbed fittings, rubber only hoses and screw hose clamps on a Bay Bus for 25 years with no issues. In fact the same fittings and hoses took that same Bus on a 17 hour trip through the mountains in the middle of winter a year ago and made the trip. They were installed in about 1971! So don't go all high and mighty and try to baffle us with BS about needing to have all those fancy fittings and hoses!
The fact of the matter is that the higher the pressure rating on a male fitting the more restrictive it is. A 1/4" or 3/8" fitting is the same external diameter no matter what pressure it is rated for. It's the inside diameter that changes so the higher the pressure rating the smaller the inside diameter and the more restrictive that fitting is!
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7210
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Yeah, oil lines, - and colers are always a debate. I agree on the aircraft type crimps and hoses.I dont use anything else myself if I can help it. I have never had problems with leaks using those.
As for oil coolers. Even a reasonably hot tempered street engine should not need an external cooler for every day driving. But if you start using the power for longer periods of time the oil temp WILL increase to higher levels than good is if you only have the stock system. Its a natural thing. Even the latest 1600 type1 was designed to handle some 46-48 hp sustained at approx 4000. If you build a larger bore, larger stroke engine the friction in the cylinders alone will increase temperatures even at the same speeds. Thats part of the why say a 2 liter type 1, even in a mild configuration has elevated temperatures compared to a stock 1600 at the same speeds unless you drop the CR so the engine doesnt produce much more DCR at that rpm than a stocker does.
It all depends. As John Connolly once said "What fun is a 80 hp 2 liter?" If your goal is to reach 250000 miles without a rebuild its probably the way to go.
As I, and others have said many times. The ACVW is partly oil cooled. Fine, then why not extend the use of the oil cooling to help take heat away from critical areas in the engine under load. In extension to that we are leaning towards the Hoover mods again, but we dont have to go that far. Less will make a difference.
70% of the ACVW´s getting built around here today are bus engines. Here I have found that a properly built and trimmed 1776 bus engine with 95-100 hp fed with Kadrons or dual IDF/DRLA´s typically do not need extra cooling. Make a small change as for innstance going with a 76 stroke to 1955 cc and 110 hp and the stock stystem juuust can´t keep up and needs a small external cooler for the long fast hauls or climbing hills.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12699
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Quite frankly I would never again run any Bus no matter the engine size without extra oil cooling. A Bug, Type 3 or Buggy? Not really needed on the street for normal driving in most cases. Maybe in hot climates or if the driver is a known hot shoe...
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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KEGZ
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021
Posts: 288
Location: Whales Vagina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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“Pissing match” lol. Hard to convey sarcasm and lighthearted jabs on the interwebs. Not my fault jpaull lives at an abandoned Sees Candy outlet. jk, jpaull.. lmao. Also, I don’t look at my VW and see ‘transportation.’ Well, maybe if I was traveling .25 of a mile A to B 
Last edited by KEGZ on Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| oprn wrote: |
An added sump by the way does little to nothing for oil temps. It just lets you run a few seconds longer if there is a major oil leak... and extends your oil change intervals. |
Really this stuff that "sounds reasonable" but made up and passed around like a bad rumor needs to stop.
In the middle of summer i went from a 1 quart sump to a 3.5 quart sump. I was able to keep and maintain the temp 10-15 degrees cooler in 100 degree weather then previously.
Adding more oil means there is more TIME to cool and shed heat before being heated up again, which keeps temps lower then a system with less oil. |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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oil lines look beautiful Jpaul. Wish i had known about the SS AN fittings before i bought aluminium.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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KEGZ
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021
Posts: 288
Location: Whales Vagina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| oil lines look beautiful Jpaul. Wish i had known about the SS AN fittings before i bought aluminium. |
Yeah cuz aluminum doesn’t belong in an engine bay 
Quick, throw all your heads and autolinea blocks away!! |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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ha
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1596
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| RandyV wrote: |
| KEGZ wrote: |
| Floating VW wrote: |
| I'm going to agree with Berg on this one (for the post part). Well-built engines shouldn't generate a lot of waste heat, whatever the displacement. |
So you’re saying an engine isn’t well built if it has high static compression? I know people running 10.5:1 on the street. Do you think the extra cooling isn’t justified? |
I don’t think it’s that so much as saying that you’re creating heat at the cylinder and head and that’s why your oils getting hot so cooling your oil is not going to change how Hot your engine is actually getting which is where it should be addressed and not at the oil. |
Yeah, as Randy noted above, I was only agreeing with the Berg's sentiment that if excess combustion heat is overheating your oil, then the cure is to make the engine more efficient, not to add extra oil coolers.
Running higher compression is actually a great way to make the engine more efficient (and consequently run cooler), than a low compression engine (which is something we can all agree that Berg got wrong). 10.5:1 "static" compression on the street is not a problem at all. As Alstrup mentioned, it's the "dynamic" compression that matters, and a high static compression is sometimes necessary to get the dynamic compression where it needs to be for trouble free motoring.
I would also like to point out that an engine capable of producing 150hp, isn't always producing 150hp, unless its sole purpose for existence is to get from point A to point B as absolutely fast as possible. It only takes about 25-30hp to make a Beetle go 60 MPH down the road (which is, I believe, the OP's intended purpose). I would say that if you need an external oil cooler on your engine to do that without overheating, you're doin' something wrong.
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Last edited by Floating VW on Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Floating VW
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Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1596
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Love that black wrinkle coat there on your engine case, jpaull!
Nicely done.
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"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7210
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Only want to add, that our brothers in the south zone naturally needs more cooling capacity than us up north. But if say a camper bus should be able to handle a chilly Scandinavian evening, but also a hot Italian afternoon, then the differences are minor
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12699
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Really this stuff that "sounds reasonable" but made up and passed around like a bad rumor needs to stop. |
Sorry you got your knickers in a twist here but this is not a rumor. It is based on ownership and daily running of a '69 Bus that Dad bought new and I took over ownership of in '81 and only just sold 10 months ago. That is a pretty extensive time frame for a rumor!
| jpaull wrote: |
| In the middle of summer i went from a 1 quart sump to a 3.5 quart sump. I was able to keep and maintain the temp 10-15 degrees cooler in 100 degree weather then previously. |
On our Bus, after the bearings failed at 34,000 mile from new, we installed an oil temperature gauge and found that the oil temperatures were reaching 380 to 400*F on a summer day on the highway at 65 MPH. 10 -15 degrees in my view is possible but it would be very difficult to confirm outside of tightly controlled conditions. That is about the width of your average temperature gauge needle and a long way from having any real impact on the temperatures we were experiencing! 10 to 15 degrees even at 200*F is splitting hairs.
| jpaull wrote: |
| Adding more oil means there is more TIME to cool and shed heat before being heated up again, which keeps temps lower then a system with less oil. |
More oil takes longer to heat up but don't forget that it takes longer to cool down too...
| Alstrup wrote: |
| Only want to add, that our brothers in the south zone naturally needs more cooling capacity than us up north. But if say a camper bus should be able to handle a chilly Scandinavian evening, but also a hot Italian afternoon, then the differences are minor |
Capacity increase for sure but if you are buying an additional sump to correct a high oil temperature problem then you are going to be disappointed.
Think about what is really happening in a deep add on sump fellows. Hot oil is falling down from the engine all around and right beside the pickup tube and being sucked right back up by the pump. All the rest of your extra oil reserve is sitting stagnant in that nice big sump going nowhere. Why? Because it is being cooled by the passing air stream and is cooler and thicker than the oil next to the pump pickup tube. Thick cooler oil does not move as easily as hot thin oil. So it ain't going nowhere and there is nothing in that sump to make it go anywhere! It's not mixing!
Now think about what happens in the stock crankcase. Hot oil is flowing down the outside of the case from all 4 directions, contacting the case sides and bottom that are being cooled by passing air then being sucked up in the center by the oil pump pick up tube. Yup, that oil is being mixed, cooled and circulated! Now add a sump on the bottom and block off that cool air on the case floor... it's a wonder to me that an added sump does not actually increase oil temperature! It should...
I have given this conundrum some thought... ideally we would drill 4 holes in the extreme corners of the add on sump, 4 matching holes in the bottom of the crankcase and connect the two. Then we would block off the hole the oil normally comes down and only have the pickup tube coming through in the center. Now the oil HAS to circulate in that sump and there should very little oil taking a holiday in the corners!
This idea however could be an oil leaking nightmare! The other idea is to tee off the oil pickup tube down inside the add on sump and make the oil pump draw oil from the edges of the sump instead of taking up the easy to draw hot thin oil directly around it in the middle. This would be easier to do.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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KEGZ
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021
Posts: 288
Location: Whales Vagina
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Why do modern cars have factory oil coolers? Did the OEM “do something wrong” and it’s there to bandaid their fk up?
People incorporate an updated feature to regulate oil temp in 60 year old aircooled technology and its heresy. You guys are all trippin. Might as well tell all the EFI guys to gtfo.
No one I know who drives their drag cars on the street overheat. I run 25lb boost on the street and don’t even come close. Is it ONLY because of the oil cooler? No.. but I’d be full of shit if I said it doesn’t help. |
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