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the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:11 pm    Post subject: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

i'm so over it

the simplest jobs turn into a 2 day fuck fest for no reason. shame on me, i should have caught it.

74 bus brake work. everything new, i mean everything, lines, hoses, clips, clamps, rebuilt booster, backing plates. literally new from pedal to tail light bulbs.

new "varga" calipers, ATE master TRW wheel cyls. proportioning valve pulled, cleaned and made sure ball went rattle rattle.

powerbleed the system like i always do. pedal goes almost to the floor. tried every trick i know even resorting to 'pump and hold' same deal.

pull master, swap for another (Brazilian) pedal much better, but far from good.

just recently did brakes on a 77 with new calipers. after the fact the brakes were a bit mushy. zero air in both cases.

suspecting the calipers (after a bleed session you should hear the pads just shhh shhh shhh shhh the rotor) and both the 77 and 74 do not do this, it's like the dust boots are sucking the pistons in enough to make the pads have zero contact, which isn't right so you need to apply a bit of pedal to make this happen.

anyway, the brakes were way mushier on the 74 than the 77. the 77 was driveable. the 74, no way.

i present to you shitty wheel cylinders:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


no matter how much you adjust the star wheels, the pistons couldn't push the shoes to the drum. even adjusting the shoes so the fucking wheels locked it still had a pedal like you stepped in dog shit.

i had a set of cylinders slated for my single cab. tossed them in and boom, pedal 100% better.

still not sold on the calipers. but fuck my life, literally 8 hours and 2+gallons of brake fluid up in smoke.
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my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
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most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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xoo00oox
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

Don't worry, surely the supplier will pay you for all that labor and brake fluid and the rental car that the customer may have needed to get because the car was down longer than anticipated. They will also call up the customer that you had for planned for today and had to put off because of this and explain to them that they are to blame, not you.
This is the exact reason I do not like working on these cars for customers anymore. How are we supposed to do good work when we can not get good parts.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

And here I am getting ready to do the '59 beetle system over again.
It was a bitch the last time because of crap rubber seals.

Thanks for the heads up!!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

Window regulators, any modern replacement brand. I’ve bought none lately I’d recommend.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

I feel you guys making a living doing this. I have no idea how you tell a customer you have to charge 3x labor when you have to do the job three times but that’s what needs to happen.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
i'm so over it

the simplest jobs turn into a 2 day fuck fest for no reason. shame on me, i should have caught it.

74 bus brake work. everything new, i mean everything, lines, hoses, clips, clamps, rebuilt booster, backing plates. literally new from pedal to tail light bulbs.

new "varga" calipers, ATE master TRW wheel cyls. proportioning valve pulled, cleaned and made sure ball went rattle rattle.

powerbleed the system like i always do. pedal goes almost to the floor. tried every trick i know even resorting to 'pump and hold' same deal.

pull master, swap for another (Brazilian) pedal much better, but far from good.

just recently did brakes on a 77 with new calipers. after the fact the brakes were a bit mushy. zero air in both cases.

suspecting the calipers (after a bleed session you should hear the pads just shhh shhh shhh shhh the rotor) and both the 77 and 74 do not do this, it's like the dust boots are sucking the pistons in enough to make the pads have zero contact, which isn't right so you need to apply a bit of pedal to make this happen.

anyway, the brakes were way mushier on the 74 than the 77. the 77 was driveable. the 74, no way.

i present to you shitty wheel cylinders:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


no matter how much you adjust the star wheels, the pistons couldn't push the shoes to the drum. even adjusting the shoes so the fucking wheels locked it still had a pedal like you stepped in dog shit.

i had a set of cylinders slated for my single cab. tossed them in and boom, pedal 100% better.

still not sold on the calipers. but fuck my life, literally 8 hours and 2+gallons of brake fluid up in smoke.


Jesus....I found that same problem .....20+ years ago on a set of Varga rear wheel cylinders for type 3/4 cars. For some stupid reason......the slot in the pistons was so deep that the shoes were so far out of line that there was not enough adjustment in the star wheela to male contact with the drums.

I think that is what you found there right?

From the sound of it.....part of this can also be poor master cylinder bore to piston head tolerances.

See.....the master cylinde bore to piston spec allowance on 19mm bores is 0.005" larger than the piston head diameter......MAX. Your larger bus MC....what....21mm? ....would be about 0.0057-ish.
I found that for a lot of the late 70s and 80s factory fresh MC builds......the cylinder to bore tolerances were coming in at about 0.004" to 0.0045".....barely in tolerance...and would rarely be rebuildable if they needed a light hone/lapping to get rid of any pits.

Earlier factory cylinders were running about 0.002" (the minimum) to about 0.003"-ish....perfect.

When the bore to piston head tolerance is too large.....the seal cup lips have to spread out further to make contact with the bore. This causes them to change angle of the lip edge ro the bore......and.....as pressure drops on pedal retraction.....the seals flex back inward very slightly. This can cause them to lose seal pressure on the bore.....and cause fluid bypass between the circuits......pedal drops down.

The older MC seals used a wedge shaped edge cross section sometimes called a "film breaker". Newer ones.....like a lot of Varga and Raybestos.....use a thin blade shaped cup seal edge. More flexible.....seals with less pressure....but more angle sensitive. If they get sloppy with the bore diameter.....the flat hat of the cup tries to extrude into the space between the piston head and bore.....causing the seal lips to change angle further.

By the way....wheel cylinders almost all have this same thin lip cup seal design. If the bores get worn or are honed/lapped to far.....sealing can be poor and lifespan short.

I have come to the conclusion over the last few years .....that with master cylinders....one could probably do far better....to save an old original FAG or ATE cylinder and either have it sleeved....or nickel plated....and rebuild the original pistons with seals and flap valves scavenged from a new kit.

There is a plating works in Thomaston Connecticut on the first floor of the old Seth Thomas clock factory that could most likely electroless nickel plate your bores for you. I will be doing some of my own for 411 and 412 not far off.

By the way.....I would not try searching on this thread title ...."fuck shitty parts"......it will probably get you to some websites that have little in common with cars....except for maybe a few threads on "best lubricants"..... Laughing

Ray
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oc92
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

sorry man... bummer

My patience pours out of me on jobs like this by the bottle. Each bottle of brake fluid I have to open and put through the system while troubleshooting is new level of foul language.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

I used these from gowesty and have zero complaints:

https://www.gowesty.com/product/hydraulic/2392/rear-brake-wheel-cylinder-
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

xoo00oox wrote:
Don't worry, surely the supplier will pay you for all that labor and brake fluid and the rental car that the customer may have needed to get because the car was down longer than anticipated. They will also call up the customer that you had for planned for today and had to put off because of this and explain to them that they are to blame, not you.
This is the exact reason I do not like working on these cars for customers anymore. How are we supposed to do good work when we cannot get good parts.


Andrew, you're probably old enough to remember when a parts house (napa, carquest etc) stood behind their product and offered labor claims etc for shit just like this.

now, you talk to a vendor and "aww shucks, we never heard of that" and there is a 3 year old 32 page thread here on TS

i f-u-c-k-i-n-g *loathe* brake fluid, followed by gear oil, coolant, atf and finally engine oil. actually it's right up there with CV grease. it's slimy, gets everywhere and is a bitch to clean up.


raygreenwood wrote:


Jesus....I found that same problem .....20+ years ago on a set of Varga rear wheel cylinders for type 3/4 cars. For some stupid reason......the slot in the pistons was so deep that the shoes were so far out of line that there was not enough adjustment in the star wheela to male contact with the drums.

I think that is what you found there right?



Ray.... kind of. basically with the adjusters pushing the shoes all the way to the drums to the point you couldn't turn them the pedal was still like mush. seeing these pivot, or physically move at the top, the slots were so deep that they basically "slid" past the shoe and were so deep they barely made contact.

clear as mud, right? if i get a chance i will try and draw a pic, but basically the groove being so deep means the pistons didn't have enough throw to move the shoes if that makes sense.

i can't believe we have slid this fucking low and vendors don't bark at their suppliers for this bullshit.

problem is, no one gives a fuck and there is some bottom feeder willing to buy this garbage so the suppliers just don't care.

i figured 2 days to build this system out, hand bend every line, replace every rubber grommet, clean and hang components. i'm on day 3.5 now....and i don't mean an hour here or there.... i mean 8am to 5pm and then come back for a few hours when the family is done with me, so say 9-11.

it's bullshit.

and the worse part is trying to diag the issue when everything is new. i think the calipers have a bigger piston than stock, so that means the MC would in theory have to be smaller to get the same pedal feel.

in the end, hogging the pedal as far as sit will go it's within about a 1/2-3/4" of what my buses do, but it's still a bit lower (by 1/2-3/4") than my buses are.

it's WAY better and i'm in the middle of a subaru conversion so i won't know until i drive it. it very well may blow me thru the windshield withing the first 1/8" of travel, not sure yet.

that said, the only other wild card i can think of is the calipers, and it would be impossible to measure the bore without taking them apart. it's total bullshit...
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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airschooled
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

In the realm of "I should have caught this, but still WTF," Varga seems to have a few issues. Brazilian early bay front cylinder, the countersink was milled so off-center the flare fitting couldn't seal:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This cylinder didn't feel the same when snugging, but the torque did ramp up eventually. Dribbles from the threads. Removed the cylinder and saw the offset countersink and bare cast iron edge on the hole. Since it was game over anyway, I stuck it back in to see what over-torquing would do. Now it's in the landfill somewhere, just like pretty much everything else we buy online.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

Tell me more about your rebuilt brake booster? I worked on a 1974 recently that someone had previously installed an aftermarket booster. They didn’t adjust that internal booster to MC rod and it was way too short causing serious pedal free play.
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

airschooled wrote:
In the realm of "I should have caught this, but still WTF," Varga seems to have a few issues. Brazilian early bay front cylinder, the countersink was milled so off-center the flare fitting couldn't seal:

Robbie


shit...you just reminded me of a WC i did a while back...like years ago. they milled the hole so fucking deep the flare wouldn't touch bottom, kinda like Xevin in bed with his lady Very Happy



aeromech wrote:
Tell me more about your rebuilt brake booster? I worked on a 1974 recently that someone had previously installed an aftermarket booster. They didn’t adjust that internal booster to MC rod and it was way too short causing serious pedal free play.


boosters aren't adjustable, at least not OE ones. some you can turn the pecker on it, bendix was famous for that. ATE is non adjustable. aftermarket? who knows. i do know the bolt pattern for the aftermarket won't fit the factory pattern on the beam btdt

this was a non adjustable ATE so it is what it is. book says adjust the push rod to booster just enough to slide the pin in
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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Manfred58sc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

This is why I stopped taking in customer work. Even telling the customer I had no time line or guarantee on any work I do up front led to hard feelings. Plus I get to baby sit their car for months trying to sort out issues and find parts. I have sought, bought, and horded brake parts for the last 10 years and I have just enough to keep my cars on the road till the e-car take over.

My local Napa ( burn in hell ) says 50% return rate on non-OE parts. Rock Auto and evil-bay are the last gasp for a OE part more than 10 years old.

The curtain is drawing closed on really driving these cars. they will sit in garages, pissing all fluids on the section of cardboard placed underneath by the owner. It will fire up a few times a year to limp to a grassy field labeled "car show" where fat fucks will exchange war stories on how they used to drive "everywhere".
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

i thought i was full of doom and gloom Laughing

thankfully, these aren't my daily source of income and every once in a while, i find a soft spot in my cold gravel heart and say yes. i'm brutally honest about how the job will go and i won't do any internal engine work on air cooled anymore for the public

this shit is annoying at minimum when issues pop up but when it ties up a lift that could be making money is when i get pissed.

i too have stocked up over the years on enough shit to keep my fleet rolling and hate to dip into my personal stash for parts but sometimes it's just easier to do that than hang a job.

moving forward it is going to be so cost prohibitive for the average person to own one of these. you can only imagine the bill for a 4 day brake job.
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

Do you charge the customer for this? I always tell the customer that I will be charging for every minute I am going to spend on the job but I never do. Someone should be paying for this wasted time but I would feel bad telling a customer they owe $3000 just in labor for a brake job.
It would be nice if the suppliers would stand by what they sell instead they are using us as the QA department.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

I believe Skills yelled this in his shop the other day Laughing

“HOLY FUCKITY FUCKING FUCK WHAT THE FUCKITY FUCKING FUCK IS GOING ON!?!?”
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I respect Xevin and he's a turd Razz

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My God! Xevin and I 100% agree Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

Quote:
The curtain is drawing closed on really driving these cars. they will sit in garages, pissing all fluids on the section of cardboard placed underneath by the owner. It will fire up a few times a year to limp to a grassy field labeled "car show" where fat fucks will exchange war stories on how they used to drive "everywhere".


Tell us how you really feel, Manfred.

Laughing

I fear that day is appoaching us, sadly.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

So Don - did you ever get the brakes working correctly?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

xoo00oox wrote:
Do you charge the customer for this? I always tell the customer that I will be charging for every minute I am going to spend on the job but I never do.....


i do my best and usually split the difference. it's not their fault, and for sure not mine but i do my best to be fair. 95% of people agree and feel bad about the struggle. the 5% that don't get fired on the spot.



SGKent wrote:
So Don - did you ever get the brakes working correctly?


i got the pedal to sink about 1/2" to 3/4 of what my buses do, measuring the pedal to the floor while pressed. mine is higher by that 1/2" or so (no vacuum assist/engine off)

having a helper hit the pedal when i spin the wheels, they do lock up within about a inch of travel so we will have to see

to answer your question i don't know if i got them working as i have not driven the bus. i'm finalizing a engine install and will still be a bit away from actually driving it (still need to build axles and a bunch of other stuff)

but, they feel way better than they did when i first started, so here's to hoping...
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: the unofficial fuck shitty parts thread Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
xoo00oox wrote:
Do you charge the customer for this? I always tell the customer that I will be charging for every minute I am going to spend on the job but I never do.....


i do my best and usually split the difference. it's not their fault, and for sure not mine but i do my best to be fair. 95% of people agree and feel bad about the struggle. the 5% that don't get fired on the spot.



SGKent wrote:
So Don - did you ever get the brakes working correctly?


i got the pedal to sink about 1/2" to 3/4 of what my buses do, measuring the pedal to the floor while pressed. mine is higher by that 1/2" or so (no vacuum assist/engine off)

having a helper hit the pedal when i spin the wheels, they do lock up within about a inch of travel so we will have to see

to answer your question i don't know if i got them working as i have not driven the bus. i'm finalizing a engine install and will still be a bit away from actually driving it (still need to build axles and a bunch of other stuff)

but, they feel way better than they did when i first started, so here's to hoping...

what were the specific components that caused it?
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