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Nicholas D Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2012 Posts: 220 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:33 am Post subject: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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My 71 westafalia with 1600dp and dual kadrons has had an ongoing problem I've been trying to diagnose with much research here. I'm now stranded at work (which believe it or not is preferred) and trying once again to diagnose the problem. It starts when cold and runs great, but more and more frequently won't start when warm. I drove it about 30 miles, parked it for about 45 minutes and now it just turns over but won't catch. I thought I had been flooding it and revisited the "how to start" and several threads here and now think it is a potential ignition issue. I just recently gave it a full tune-up (oil, valves adjustment, checked plugs, points adjust and timing).
So I guess the question I have is about spark from the wire going from coil to the center of distributor. I take the center wire off of the distributor and hold it (insulated) right next to metal and turn the alternator pully with my socket but am not seeing any spark. Am I doing this right and will I even see a spark with such a slow, short turn?
Any pointers greatly appreciated - I'm ready to go home for the weekend!
update - a coworker just stopped by so I had him turn the key while I held the center wire to metal and got nothing. Assuming the coil is just failing? Would it make sense that once it cools off it works again? _________________ 71 Westfalia
73 Beetle
Last edited by Nicholas D on Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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you pull the center wire out on the distributor side, and if there is no spark when cranking it then you have some kind of ignition problem. It could be coil, points, condenser, wiring, or ignition switch. Do you have a volt meter? The spark should be at least 1/8th inch long. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Nicholas D Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2012 Posts: 220 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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My voltmeter was conveniently left out of my bus tool bag and is at the house. It's got a hot start relay and I just replaced the condenser a few months ago, I know I should have replaced coil at that time too but didn't have one. The points and the contact points on the distributor cap and on the rotor look nice and clean too. And the timing was just checked and is at about 30-32 at max advance. Definitely no spark at all right now. _________________ 71 Westfalia
73 Beetle |
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Nicholas D Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2012 Posts: 220 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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The walking distance flaps has this? I'm not completely desperate as the bus is in a safe spot and can get a ride home so I don't want to do more damage just because I'm impatient but would this get me on the road at least temporarily?
_________________ 71 Westfalia
73 Beetle |
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Mberglo Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2020 Posts: 381 Location: Huntsville, AL
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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You can't do that with the center wire. If you disconnect that from the distributor, you won't have points to break the coil. Pull one of the spark plug wires off the cap and hold it very close to see the arc. Or connect a timing light that you trust. |
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Mberglo Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2020 Posts: 381 Location: Huntsville, AL
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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That edelbrock coil will work just fine, but you'll have to put different ends on your wires. |
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Nicholas D Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2012 Posts: 220 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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edit - new coil, no fire. _________________ 71 Westfalia
73 Beetle |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2702 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Condenser ?
Ignition switch worn out ?
Check with a 12 volt test lamp or voltmeter across the points that the lamp turns on and off as you crank. Proves the points are opening and the condenser has not shorted out.
Try a wire from battery + to coil black wire positive side, then crank.
That will tell you if it is the ignition switch if the engine starts.
Disconnect the wire from the battery end to stop the engine. Do not pull it off the coil and drop the end of the wire on the tinware unless you like smoking red hot wires. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Mberglo wrote: |
You can't do that with the center wire. If you disconnect that from the distributor, you won't have points to break the coil. Pull one of the spark plug wires off the cap and hold it very close to see the arc. Or connect a timing light that you trust. |
no - pulling the center plug wire from the distributor side still leaves the points working. The center wire coming from the coil will still carry every spark pulse. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Mberglo Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2020 Posts: 381 Location: Huntsville, AL
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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You're right. Coil is triggered on condenser wire. I wasn't thinking right. |
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Mberglo Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2020 Posts: 381 Location: Huntsville, AL
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Got 12v on the positive side of the coil with the ignition switch in the "on" position? |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3546 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Try a new condenser. Quality control on these is poor, these days. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4003 Location: WA
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Look to see if the center contact inside of the cap is still there and x2 on condenser replacement they are simple to test with a multi meter just set it at 2k ohms and charge it up and reverse leads it should drain down if it didn't hold the charge it's dead. |
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Nicholas D Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2012 Posts: 220 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Thanks for all the tips, I'll work through all of them tomorrow. Ended up cleaning the transmission ground strap and it started but I think that was just coincidental. Got halfway home and it started the old fuel starvation symptoms I was dealing with a year ago so I turned around disgusted and left it at work. Needed a beer. Pretty sure I'm dealing with a couple different issues but I'm going to regroup and start at square one tomorrow. Thanks again! To be continued _________________ 71 Westfalia
73 Beetle |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Nicholas D wrote: |
Thanks for all the tips, I'll work through all of them tomorrow. Ended up cleaning the transmission ground strap and it started but I think that was just coincidental. Got halfway home and it started the old fuel starvation symptoms I was dealing with a year ago so I turned around disgusted and left it at work. Needed a beer. Pretty sure I'm dealing with a couple different issues but I'm going to regroup and start at square one tomorrow. Thanks again! To be continued |
condensers of late act like fuel problems sometimes. during 35 years with cars, boats etc that had condensers I never saw one go bad but replaced many on principle. Lately you don't replace them on principle because so many people are having issues with them. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3546 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Starbucket wrote: |
Look to see if the center contact inside of the cap is still there and x2 on condenser replacement they are simple to test with a multi meter just set it at 2k ohms and charge it up and reverse leads it should drain down if it didn't hold the charge it's dead. |
Unfortunately, this test for ignition condensers is not definitive. The failure is sometimes voltage breakdown: ignition condensers see 350 volts or better, and can suffer non-fatal internal arcing - something a meter can't duplicate. You can use a current-limited high voltage power supply with a meter, but just swapping the condenser is easier... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13367 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Bosch had QC issues with their condensers about 10 years ago. Many folks have had failures within the first day or week of installing one.
They appear to have fixed it for the most part. I've mounted hundreds of new Bosch or Beru condensers the past few years. After restoring each distributor, they are tested on a Sun distributor machine.
I've had (1) bad new Bosch or Beru condenser out of the box in the past several years. Ironically, it was only a couple weeks ago. I put a freshly restored distributor on the distributor machine post restoration to do the checks. The machine would not fire the strobe with new points and condenser. I thought maybe I had some slight surface corrosion on the new points faces which isn't unusual. Nope. I installed another new condenser and it cured the issue.
As a side note, I've never had a bad NOS condenser. I've mounted tons of 30-40 YO NOS Bosch condensers and never had an issue with one. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
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**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4003 Location: WA
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Starbucket wrote: |
Look to see if the center contact inside of the cap is still there and x2 on condenser replacement they are simple to test with a multi meter just set it at 2k ohms and charge it up and reverse leads it should drain down if it didn't hold the charge it's dead. |
Unfortunately, this test for ignition condensers is not definitive. The failure is sometimes voltage breakdown: ignition condensers see 350 volts or better, and can suffer non-fatal internal arcing - something a meter can't duplicate. You can use a current-limited high voltage power supply with a meter, but just swapping the condenser is easier...
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That may be true but if it fails the Multi meter test IT's BAD! |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3546 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Agreed. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Nicholas D Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2012 Posts: 220 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Bus won't start when warm - coil check? |
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Update - jumped in, started right up and drove great for about 20 of the 25 miles. Started the bucking/hesitating routine so I found a barroom parking lot in which to turn it off and swap out the condenser figuring when I get stranded I'll be in the right spot. New condenser and it runs just as poorly if not worse. Eventually just died. I got no reading on the voltmeter from the positive side of the coil with the key in the "on" position prior to the condenser switch and think I may have fried my voltmeter trying it while it was running.
Guess I'm going to let it cool off and see if I can limp it home in a bit. Frustrating to be a shitty mechanic, but the margaritas are great! _________________ 71 Westfalia
73 Beetle |
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