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Oil and grime on everything
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Everpress
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

I have a 69 Bay, 1600sp. The lower end is a Mexican block, top end has been modified for EI, no name distributor, crappy Empi carb, and I’m in the process of trying to get the thing roadworthy for some family camping trips, and maybe as a daily driver.

My background: I am not a mechanic. I have been guilty of “making it work”, and have had that bite me in the ass. That said, I was planning on rebuilding the carb (done it before years ago and enjoyed the process), replacing the generator with an alternator (eventually plan to install a leisure battery and wanted to not rely on a Gen, though I’ve heard you can).

As I started digging into the bus, I found some fun things the PO did that had me scratching my head… a ton of “making it work”… but not really. And I remembered they had split the case and installed an EMPI racing cam. I don’t know much about it, but after seeing previous work, I wanted to dig in as far as I need to… taking an engine out of a VW is too easy, so after following a ton of threads, I bought a 2ton HB stand and an adapter from one of the members here, used a 1500lb atv lift and ripped the engine out.

Oil in the bell housing, oil on the teeth of the flywheel, oil and grime all over the bottom of the engine… I’m already looking at replacing the seal behind the flywheel and checking the oil throwing gear block… does anyone have anything to add? I have relied on the Hanes, ratwell, and so many here on the forums, so I hope you guys have some wisdom to throw my way!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Oil in the bell housing is usually from the front main seal on the end of the crankshaft. You will always get *some* oil in there, usually a tiny bit pooling at the bottom of the bell housing, because it's not a perfect seal. But if you have enough for oil to be getting thrown around in there, that's too much.

Check the oil that you find in there and see whether it's engine oil or gear oil. Gear oil stinks to high heaven so you'll know if it's gear oil. If it's gear oil, you're gonna want to replace the input shaft seal on the transaxle.

Your other pics look pretty normal for an indifferently-maintained high miles engine. Got some pushrod tube seal leaks and the oil/grime on bottom of the case could be related to your front main seal as the oil that drips out of there when going down the road, the wind blows back and it slowly coats the bottom of the case.

The pushrod tube seals you really can't do properly without pulling the heads, but if you do go that route consider getting new stainless steel tubes so they won't get all rusty and crusty like the ones you have in there now. And get the good seals.
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Everpress
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Thanks sjbartnik.
No gear oil; after lurking for a good long time (and using that “search button” everyone talks about), I did smell it to make sure.

I haven’t seen any cracks in the block, so I was thinking it had to be a seal (or seals).

I found bondo on the left (right if looking behind) side of the intake manifold… so I’ll continue a tear down and cleaning, replacing as I go (as needed).

If I go so far as to do a full rebuild, I will definitely go ahead and replace the tubes you mentioned with stainless.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Looks like there are no tins, Type 1 or Type 3, under the cylinders and above the pushrods.

That needs to be addressed.

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Also looks like the #1 exhaust is not a heater box and the PO used paper freshair tubing to connect the #2 heater box to the car's interior.

It smells like the PO was a hack.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Glenn,

Thanks for the response. I can’t seem to get upset at the PO… everyone will be someone else’s PO eventually. And I’m sure I’ll make some choices that the future owner won’t appreciate.

That said, with all the “quick fix solutions” I keep uncovering, I figured I should start the tear-down process to catch as many surprises before they catch me.

I was in the process of removing engine tins and heater boxes… not that the heater boxes were functioning or there was a thermostat to make the tins 100% either…
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

This should probably be a separate topic, but it’s still a “cleaning some grime” subject matter.

So, I saw a little flake of some painted “blob” where the intake manifold splits at heads and heat risers. I picked it off with a flat head screwdriver and saw rust. I decided to take the manifold off to see if I could eyeball any holes (after I hit it with a wire brush).

Turns out I didn’t need to try too hard; I assumed everything with bondo was covering a leak and then I found this:

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So… new intake manifold is in order, I guess.

I keep telling myself not to look any farther, just put it back together and drive it til it dies… but sure enough… I keep on looking.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

That's a popular spot to drill out the heat riser for cleaning. My preferred method is to cut up an old clutch cable and put it in a drill. You'll want progressively longer chunks to get all the carbon out. Most cables prefer spinning CCW, but inspect the winds on your own or it gets ugly, quick.

Original manifolds fit so much better I'd rather take that one to a skilled welder after cleaning it out. It was common to service-install an emissions system to the manifold back in the day. Nowadays we just plug those holes with a pipe plug. Not attractive, but quite functional when cleaning. (Left side heat riser)

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Everpress
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

I didn’t know that, so thanks for the info!

I have other pics where bondo was applied on both left and right, front and back of the manifold where the two tubes meet, creating a “bit of rust”, so I’m not sure how much integrity the manifold actually has at this point.

I’ll hold onto this one and clean it/prep it for a repair for the future.

Thanks again for the info, seriously.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

airschooled wrote:
That's a popular spot to drill out the heat riser for cleaning.


After looking closely (not on my phone), I see your plug solution... the hole I submitted was in the front (toward the front of the bus), so you would have to remove the intake manifold to drill the hole, reinstall and then to clean it in the way you described... I mean... it COULD be done, but only if you scraped off the bondo and prodded around by feel or using a mirror to find it, snake the cable in and hope it doesn't go down the head direction and actually makes it into the heat riser... OR remove all the bits that I did to get to it, remove the intake manifold and clean it... Either way, it's a rusty hole, surrounded by rust between the tubes on both sides and slathered with bondo likely to cover other more minor cracks or holes... and all that seemed to do was trap moister and make the problem worse...

I'm still going to keep it, maybe try to repair it... should the replacement somehow fail me in a similar fashion...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

MUIR method.....heat it hot with propane, then switch off the gas and pop it with oxygen...very satisfying
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

That was likely muffler cement, not bondo, either way not the best way to repair it. Some sandblasting will fix the rust, see what's left after that, weld up the holes (after reaming it again) and add some in a more accessible location, or just weld it up and wait 20 years for it to clog again.

As Robbie mentions no "new" manifold is going to come close to the fit and performance of a real German one, it's worth the time to fix the one you have.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Googled about every other word in the two replies…

You guys saved me some cussing, some money and some time:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uZoLcGrYsBA
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

So, I’m not doing a “build” post but keeping this type of thing in the same post since (1) I’m not smart like y’all, (b) I’m about as mechanically inclined as a potato, and (3) I am more ‘cleaning’ rather than ‘building’.

That said:

The bus ran when I bought it. Rough. Really really rough. I drove it about 20 miles (accidentally routing myself on the highway). At higher rpms, the engine seemed pretty smooth, but keeping it running at idle or even lower speeds was a game of clutch-gas-clutch. I already knew from talking to the PO, he had issues keeping the engine alive while driving. He thought it was likely the carb, and I was inclined to believe him (because I had no reason not to).

In fact, the carb COULD be part of the problem, so I’m rebuilding it anyway.

As I dug in a bit, with all the dirt and grime, I started down the “oh sh!t - what have I done - this is a parts bus not a bus bus” train of thought since there is oil (as seen in the thread already) in places there shouldn’t be, body filler, burned through welds, rust in some tough spots, and on and on… But I’m a stubborn fool that wants to drive this.

I’m a simple man, with simple desires: The bus starts when I want it to. It runs until I tell it not to. I drive it in the rain/through a puddle and I stay dry. When I shift to a gear, I get the gear I want. And the bus stops when I apply the brakes.
I’m not looking for perfection or any kind of restoration outside of function.

I don’t know much, but I know if oil is somewhere other than in the engine, that’s not great and ‘rust kills’. So I tore into the top bits of the engine and removed all the tin, cleaning a little as I went inspecting to find where problems could be. I’m sure there is no leak at the crank, the oil throw/oil pump, the oil cooler or the valve gaskets. You guys already ID’d a negligible leak at the pushrod tubes (I’ll deal with that as I have to) and (through searching) likely the flywheel (seals and flywheel lock on order).

While I wait, I decided to wire-wheel the intake manifold, clean the carbon out of the heat risers and reapply some JB Weld High Heat putty to the drilled holes. I let that cure, washed everything down with soapy water and then wiped it down with degreaser. Then I painted it to protect against rust.

I’ve read that most folks go at it with no primer, but… I’m a sucker. So I grabbed some VHT Ultra High Heat Primer and a VHT Ultra High Heat metallic gray (grey for some of you), and followed directions.

Then I went ahead and did that whole process for the exhaust/muffler… and the heater boxes (after I sealed some holes) then I did the same for the engine tin, but opting for a VHT Ultra High Heat Flat Black instead.

Why spend the time and money on this when surely there are more pressing things?
When I had pulled the intake, there was thick black dust/scorch where the intake meets the heads on both sides and I couldn’t really tell if it was sealed properly (possibly adding to the rough running). I cleaned the area around the intake, degreased the area and removed the old ring seals (new ones on order). I want to, as easily as possible, be able to identify any near future leaks (be it oil, fuel, or exhaust) and I had a little time to kill.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Looking good!

You'll need to install the under cylinder tins that Glenn mentioned and the pushrod o-rings that sjbartnik noted. There is no better time to do it than now

When you remove the heads you'll be able to check for valve seat cracks and the state of your pistons etc. Without the under cylinder tins there is a chance this engine had a high heat episode which can lead to trouble.

Follow the torque sequence when you remove the heads and be really careful not to pull the cylinders off the pistons. When the head is off use a socket or something bolted to a head stud to stop the cylinders falling off when you spin the engine around etc..

Have you bought this book yet?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Tommu,

I have the correct tins, but I do not have that book…
I have a bus restoration book (I need to peruse that one), the Haynes and the good ol’ Muir guide… and all of the samba (thank all that’s holy).

I’ll probably chew on the idea of poking around some more, but I gotta be honest… I doubt I’ll like what I find. The PO meant well, but the reason the bus looks like it exploded in my garage is because there was one thing that led to another, to another and to another. And knowing that he threw an EMPI cam in means 1) it has an Empi cam and 2) he split the case.

I’m on the fence on if there is enough leakage for me to worry about from the pushrods right now at the moment (it sounds worse just typing that). I’ll throw in the seal at the flywheel, shore up the endplay and… most likely tear into the heads… ugh.

(“Get a bus” they said… “It’ll be fun” they said.)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

There are two sets of tins that go under the cylinders, you need the both.

Very little oil should pool in the bell housing even if you have a significant leak, I am guessing the drain channel between the engine and bell housing is clogged.

Replace both the flywheel seal and the tranny input seal while you are in there
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Cleaning things up and putting obvious things right is a good place to start. Your engine looks pretty typical in terms of crud. I’ve had engines that leaked enough oil to end up on the back windshield and it was not even a significant leak. It doesn’t take much to make a big mess. As part of my time ups I clean up the engine. It tends to stay that way and makes it easy to spot leaks, things coming loose, etc. Good luck with your project.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Thanks!
I finished rebuilding the carb last night.
There was a lot of very fine rust particles in the bowl (not from the carb but likely from the tank). All parts cleaned in a parts/carb cleaner dip and scrubbed/replaced.
Once new seals/gaskets and other parts come in, I’ll reassemble the engine and set it off to the side.

A quick visual inspection of the gas tank shows no leaks or rust externally, but I’ll have to pull the tank to see inside. I was planning on this anyway to check the sending unit since the gas gauge is stuck on “E” permanently.
***What do I do with old, dirty gas???

Along with this, I’ll be examining (and replacing some bushings) the shifting systems because it is the sloppiest, most convoluted shifting I have ever seen. The shift plate seems worn (minimally), but I have a used stock replacement in better shape I’ll put it.
***Any suggestions (in addition to gaskets/shift plate) to tighten up the shifting?

Finally, there is plenty of panel/sheet metal repair that needs to happen. I had to cut off a few inches of good metal to replace rusty metal under the nose skin that was harboring rust, so I plan to use that good metal and recycle it into small patches for some repair through out the bus.
*** I have never welded anything and plan to put in some hours practicing with and without a copper backing tool to reduce burn through. I have a cheap flux core welder and a budget that fits that. Suggestions on this are totally welcome and encouraged!!!

I know I said “finally”, above, but that is a lie. I will also be checking/repairing and refinishing the pop top (boat paint/gel coat) and customizing the stock camper furniture (taking the closet down a lot to allow light for the window it covers, making a new track for the penthouse folding bed to still be useable, crafting panels, recovering the seats,etc.)

One day I might even do disk brakes in the front.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

Quote:
What do I do with old, dirty gas???

What do you do with old motor oil, paint thinner and solvents?
Quote:
Any suggestions (in addition to gaskets/shift plate) to tighten up the shifting?

If the trans is out now's the time to clean out the shift tube and regrease, new bushings on the rod too, the rest can be done with the trans in place if needed.
Quote:
I have never welded anything and plan to put in some hours practicing with and without a copper backing tool to reduce burn through. I have a cheap flux core welder and a budget that fits that. Suggestions on this are totally welcome and encouraged!!!

You are on your own there, read some of the rust repair threads here, watch Youtube, take a welding or autobody course at your local college. After that start practising, weld all the stuff you cut off back together, buy a bent door or hood from the wrecking yard and cut it up, then weld it back together, make a mess first so you can figure out what works and what doesn't.

Invest in a good grinder and don't shop for grinding wheels by price alone, also get yourself some top shelf ear, eye and lung protection, you and the grinder are going to be spending a lot of time together, don't add to the frustration with shitty tools.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: Oil and grime on everything Reply with quote

I take my old oil to a local AP; but they don’t accept old gas.
No bigs - I used the good ol’ Google.
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