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AlexTheBug Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2021 Posts: 10 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:31 am Post subject: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Long time admirer, first time poster. I need help deciding what the heck I should do next.
(Quick summary: I overheated and vapor locked the engine. After a few minor fixes, I've discovered that my distributor rotor is not turning when I turn the engine at the pulley. I'm afraid my camshaft may be damaged. Looking for advice.)
Background (feel free to skip)
I bought my 68' (with a '71, 1600cc, dual port engine) back in June - my first project car and my first beetle. My wife and I enjoyed a couple months of lovely cruises around town. The car was running great, except for little bubbly backfires on deceleration, and for occasional trouble starting. Otherwise, it drove as expected. I figured I would eventually fix the issues as I worked through the basic maintenance procedures from the John Muir book, replaced the battery, and generally learned more about the car.
One day I noticed that my green oil light was not coming on upon turning the key, so I spent an evening conducting trial and error until I fixed it (it was the bulb/socket connection, no biggie). In the process, I made a rookie move - I accidentally put the ignition wire on the wrong side of the coil. After failing to start the car again with the key, I tried push starting a few times. After my 4th or 5th try pushing, I smelled burnt rubber. It ended up being the condenser wire, completely fried. So I replaced the condenser and points... and I made another rookie mistake - I removed the distributor completely, which meant I needed to reset the timing. I figured all of that out and successfully reset the timing. The only issue - the backfiring seemed to have gotten a little worse. It was happening on acceleration now. Still, it wan't too bad, so I took it out to a bug show the next day.
The day of the show was sweltering hot. When I left, I was smitten with my Bug, so I took the scenic route home. Rookie move number 3 - I got myself stuck in traffic on a really hot day. By the time I found parking at home, the engine was clearly really hot. A couple hours later (still on the tail end of a hot summer day), I took her out again. Within a couple minutes, BANG! A huge backfire and the engine gave out. Clearly it had overheated. I gave it some time to cool on the side of the road, but it was clear that she wasn't starting again. Eventually I drained the old battery with multiple tries, so I got a tow home.
First, I replaced my old battery. I knew that was going to be needed since the previous owner told me it was an old battery, so I figured it was a good starting point. Next, I addressed the fuel. The filters had gone dry from the vapor lock, so I started by replacing the filters and some of the fuel lines. That led me to the fuel pump because even though gas was moving through the lines, it was not making it past the pump. When I pulled that, I noticed the bottom of the pump had almost no grease left. I think this is where the big backfire came from. Fuel may have leaked down into the engine and caused the explosion (Does that make sense to anyone else?). I decided to replace the fuel pump, gaskets, drive rod, and flange.
Once I got that done, I replaced my fan belt (just for good measure), and I began turning the engine at the pulley so I could see if my new fuel pump was working. Success! Fuel appeared in my filter between the pump and carb. However, I also pulled off the distributor cap and discovered that the rotor wasn't turning. I pushed it down a bit, and it would work for a quarter turn, but then stop turning again. After lots of research today, it seems like there's a good chance my camshaft has been damaged.
Questions:
-Is it possible it's NOT my camshaft? What else should I look for?
-If it is my cam, is my only option to pull the engine? Other options?
-I lost TDC - Is it possible to get that back?
-I can't throw a couple thousand at it today -- what are my best economical options moving forward?
-Any other advice regarding pulling my engine? Tips and tricks?
-As a newbie, what should I do myself, and what should I give to a pro (i.e., a machinist or mechanic)?
Thanks! |
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viiking Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013 Posts: 2667 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:49 am Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Before you go heading off in the "pull the engine mode", mark the distributor location at the rotor (preferably at TDC) and then pull out the distributor.
Check the distributor drive dog to see if it is damaged. It is located by a small pin which if you are lucky has sheared off. (If it has, it may have fallen in the engine). _________________ 1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7023 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:27 am Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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My money would be on you've not seated the distributor fully into the case, so the ears of the dog aren't engaging properly into the drive. Your massive backfire occurred when the ignition went out of time.
You'll need to fully loosen the distributor clamp then push the distributor down whilst turning the rotor 'round until the whole thing seats downward several millimeters. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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joemama Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: La Crescenta, California
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:17 am Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Man, you are jumping to a lot of conclusions. I agree with mukluk, somehow your distributor is not all the way down. Finding top dead center is not hard. just look it up on youtube. Backfiring on acceleration is more than likely wrong point gap, and timing. In my time of owning cars, I have driven 5 different air cooled vw over the years, mostly thru the 70's and into the mid 80's. These were my daily drivers, and I drove them everywhere. Never once did I worry about overheating. Currently I have a fiberglass buggy, and a 71 bug. I still dont worry about overheating. I dont remember ever dealing with vapor lock.
Look at he simple things. Go back over things you did and see if something needs to be corrected. |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Distributor could be not fully seated although, if that is the case, and you ran it that way, odds are the brass distributor drive gear's been turned into cinnamon flake. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33991 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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A clamp bent up from overtightening can make it hard to seat the distributor fully. |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5994 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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1) A properly tuned VW engine can get suck in a traffic jam on a hot day with no problem.
2) Vapor lock does not go BANG.
3) It's almost never vapor lock.
4) The distributor is not operated by the camshaft. The distributor drive pinion is turned by a brass gear that is on the crankshaft.
Let's start with the most immediate issue, which is that your distributor is not fully seated in the slot on the drive pinion. This could indeed be the main cause of the car backfiring, and then not starting.
1) do not rotate the engine with the distributor removed. This can cause the drive pinion to ride up in its bore and damage the brass gear.
2) Rotate the engine to TDC on #1 (you should know how to do this as you have to do it every 3000 miles for your valve adjustment). Since your distributor is not seated you can't rely on the rotor for this, but you have more than enough information by using your crankshaft pulley and removing the right side valve cover to observe the position of the valves on #1 cylinder. Rotate engine until the TDC dimple on the pulley aligns with the seam in the crankcase. Now go look at the #1 valves. If they are both closed and you can rock the rockers with their .006" clearance, you are at the right place. If one valve is open and one isn't, you are at TDC for cylinder #3 so bring the engine around another 360 degrees and you'll be in the right place.
3) Remove distributor. With distributor out, verify that the points contact surfaces are in good shape (not pitted or burned) and that the gap is set to .016" when the points rubbing block is on a high point of the shaft inside the distributor.
4) Observe the orientation of the slot in the distributor drive pinion. Note that the slot is offset from center. Find the pic in the Bentley manual (or I'm sure someone will post it in this thread) about how the slot should be oriented when the engine is at TDC on #1 and make sure yours looks like that. If so, when you align the rotor to the notch in the distributor rim, the tangs at the bottom of the distributor should fit into the slot in the drive pinion.
5) Check your distributor mounting clamp. If it is bent, it can prevent the distributor from seating fully in the drive pinion. Often, over-torquing the timing adjustment nut can cause the clamp to distort. You don't need a lot of torque on that nut.
6) Ensure when re-installing the distributor that you put a little oil on the o-ring to help it along, then as you are installing it, wiggle the rotor slightly as you press down to ensure that the tangs fit into the slot fully and that the distributor body is seated fully down against the clamp and there's not a gap there. At this point you should not be able to turn the rotor by hand.
7) Tighten the nut that holds the clamp, then you can static time the engine to at least get it close enough to start, where final adjustments can then be made with the timing light.
Get all the above done, report back, and we'll go from there. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Chickensoup wrote: |
Distributor could be not fully seated although, if that is the case, and you ran it that way, odds are the brass distributor drive gear's been turned into cinnamon flake. |
If he is using a stock fuel pump with the pushrod how would the gear get discombobulated? Maybe I missed something. I just reread the OPs question on TDC and can he get it back? Yes. Jojo left his home in Tucson Arizona for some California grass. Get Back. |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Chickensoup wrote: |
Distributor could be not fully seated although, if that is the case, and you ran it that way, odds are the brass distributor drive gear's been turned into cinnamon flake. |
If he is using a stock fuel pump with the pushrod how would the gear get discombobulated? Maybe I missed something. I just reread the OPs question on TDC and can he get it back? Yes. Jojo left his home in Tucson Arizona for some California grass. Get Back. |
um no. MFP's are spring actuated. the dizzy drive shaft can still jump up and down. the gears are helical.
i can overcome the spring force with my fingers. i doubt thatz enough force to keep everyting in check at a few thousand rpm. specialy when the gears are pushing the shaft up. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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virusdoc Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2018 Posts: 525 Location: Durham, NC, USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:30 am Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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AlexTheBug wrote: |
Long time admirer, first time poster. I need help deciding what the heck I should do next.
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Please post some photos of your engine compartment so we can see what we're dealing with. Give us some close-up in-focus shots of the distributor where it meets the engine case. _________________ 1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire) |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Chickensoup wrote: |
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Chickensoup wrote: |
Distributor could be not fully seated although, if that is the case, and you ran it that way, odds are the brass distributor drive gear's been turned into cinnamon flake. |
If he is using a stock fuel pump with the pushrod how would the gear get discombobulated? Maybe I missed something. I just reread the OPs question on TDC and can he get it back? Yes. Jojo left his home in Tucson Arizona for some California grass. Get Back. |
um no. MFP's are spring actuated. the dizzy drive shaft can still jump up and down. the gears are helical.
i can overcome the spring force with my fingers. i doubt thatz enough force to keep everyting in check at a few thousand rpm. specialy when the gears are pushing the shaft up. |
You know you’d be a lot more believable if you had ever built a running VW engine 😀 |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:52 am Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Chickensoup wrote: |
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Chickensoup wrote: |
Distributor could be not fully seated although, if that is the case, and you ran it that way, odds are the brass distributor drive gear's been turned into cinnamon flake. |
If he is using a stock fuel pump with the pushrod how would the gear get discombobulated? Maybe I missed something. I just reread the OPs question on TDC and can he get it back? Yes. Jojo left his home in Tucson Arizona for some California grass. Get Back. |
um no. MFP's are spring actuated. the dizzy drive shaft can still jump up and down. the gears are helical.
i can overcome the spring force with my fingers. i doubt thatz enough force to keep everyting in check at a few thousand rpm. specialy when the gears are pushing the shaft up. |
You know you’d be a lot more believable if you had ever built a running VW engine 😀 |
?? Go to my topics list.
I actually destroyed a brass gear that way on a short block. Should be in my gallery. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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joemama Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: La Crescenta, California
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:11 am Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Just curious. Was the fuel pump installed in the short block? |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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"AlexTheBug" Your getting some pretty good advice. I would say change the oil and see what is in it. You're probably looking at a screwed up distributor drive gear on the crank. They are yellow brass. So if there is a lot of yellow brass in the oil it needs a full rebuild. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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Danwvw wrote: |
"AlexTheBug" Your getting some pretty good advice. I would say change the oil and see what is in it. You're probably looking at a screwed up distributor drive gear on the crank. They are yellow brass. So if there is a lot of yellow brass in the oil it needs a full rebuild. |
Yes, unfortunately the brass particles always break small. They get sucked into the oil pump, ruin the body, can scorch journals, and are very good at impending themselves in the lifter bores and babbitt top layer on bearings.
Hopefully this isn't the case, but check the oil. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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I wonder why VW used Brass?
Was it kind of a needed place for things to break? Well maybe because it was safaificial there separating steel gears nicely? You know
(I always love tearing down a engine that's got a lot of miles on it and finding the Brass Gear Pristine!)
To have a distributor gear push up so much it disengages must be some kind of assembly error someone probably took the flywheel off that didn't know to look out for that gear carefully. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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AlexTheBug Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2021 Posts: 10 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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MASSIVE THANK YOU to everyone who replied. I indeed have some work ahead of me. Thank you for talking me off the overhaul ledge! I've learned a lot here.
Extra thank you to "sjbartnik" (for the clear and useful instructions) and "Zundfolge1432" (for the topical Beatles reference).
No doubt, I over-torqued my distributor clamp bracket when I replaced the points and condenser a while back. I knew it as soon as I read the first reply, and that was indeed the first thing that I found when I lifted my hood after stepping away from my computer. So this seems to be the most likely culprit of my troubles, as well as my inexperience installing my distributor.
I pulled my distributor and took look at the driving dog at the bottom. It doesn't look like the metal has been shaved at that point (phew), but I noticed it had a lot of play. I assume this isn't ideal, right? Should I take it apart or let someone more knowledgable do it (anyone in the San Jose, CA area interested?)
Should I go as far as removing the distributor drive shaft to see if anything is going on there, or better to leave it be?
Changing the oil sounds like a manageable next step for sure! I'll do that and work through sjbartnik's instructions and "Get Back" to the group.
Thanks again to all. I bought this Bug because I've always loved Bugs, I wanted to learn, and because I enjoy the VW community. Glad to be part of it. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31360 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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AlexTheBug wrote: |
I pulled my distributor and took look at the driving dog at the bottom. It doesn't look like the metal has been shaved at that point (phew), but I noticed it had a lot of play. I assume this isn't ideal, right? Should I take it apart or let someone more knowledgable do it (anyone in the San Jose, CA area interested?) |
I would just install it correctly, with a good clamp.[/quote]
AlexTheBug wrote: |
Should I go as far as removing the distributor drive shaft to see if anything is going on there, or better to leave it be? |
If mine: I'd leave it be.
When I rebuilt my factory 1971 engine in 2016-2017, even with the correct tool I could not remove the distributor drive gear, had to tap it out after the case was split, and it was undamaged. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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joemama Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: La Crescenta, California
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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The distributor dog normally has a lot of play, its designed that way. I wouldnt mess with it. |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: To overhaul or not to overhaul? |
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joemama wrote: |
The distributor dog normally has a lot of play, its designed that way. I wouldnt mess with it. |
X2 someone told me if you mess with it you’ll go to hell |
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