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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1474 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:05 am Post subject: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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While readying my Vanagon for the road ( not driven since 1988! ) I realized I have no brake lights. I haven't had time to diagnose yet... but had a thought. Does anyone make a quick brake light switch kit for these vans like the kit that's available for Bugs? I have a kit on my Bug and it's probably the best thing I did for safety. I've done some searching, but haven't come up with anything |
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7757 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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Great idea. Although I'm still waiting for trouble to rear it's head, I've wondered the same thing for a while.
The pressure switch design is certainly one of the most ridiculously over-engineered things VW ever put on a vehicle...
<watching>
- Dave _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50348
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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No clue what is in the kit you speak of, but I believe the switches for the Vanagon is the same as for a Bug, Transporter, or other boxer VW's |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1474 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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Wildthings wrote: |
No clue what is in the kit you speak of, but I believe the switches for the Vanagon is the same as for a Bug, Transporter, or other boxer VW's |
This is the kit I'm referring to that is installed in my bug. It looks like no one makes one for the Vanagon, so I may need to get creative.It works absolutely awesome! https://www.aircooledevolution.com/product-page/pedal-activated-brake-light-switch |
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hdenter Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 2754 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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The kit is for a micro switch at the peddle that activates the brake lights as soon as the peddle is in motion instead of relying on the pressure switch on the master cylinder that doesn't activate until 20psi has built up. _________________ '79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6357 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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Yes it will also last longer as there's arcing occuring in the pressure switch leading to its death.
An excellent read here: https://www.sw-em.com/hydraulic%20brake%20light%20switches%20notes.htm
My master cylinder is a European model with only one port, my brand new ATE switch took a sh!t on me in Nicaragua. I like the simplicity of just one switch, you don't wait for both to die to notice it
I had to cut it apart to fix it and put it back together with JB-Weld.
I also switched to LED's to make it last longer, I was running incandescent bulbs bc I have factory cruise control, but since I never had time to make it work, I went back to LED's
Pics here of the 3 prong model https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=281022&postorder=desc
I cut it open and cooled it down in the dog water bowl
Notice the contact that got hot and started to melt the plastic. I cleaned it with a razor blade.
Epoxyied, and zip tied for holding it shut
Curing all afternoon and overnight
Morning candy
Bonus picture, I squatted the Survivor show shack they built a few years back for the show. I found it randomly trailblazing overgrown vegetation on a huge private hotel property with paid public day access. I decided to chance it and sleep here since I was out of sight from the hotel and beach. Some old surfers came hang out, I offered them some beers in exchange of their silence , they told me about the shack.
_________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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hardway Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2012 Posts: 416 Location: Fidalgo Island
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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GoWesty sells a switch for cancelling cruise control to replace the vacuum vent switches. I have one on the clutch pedal in my van with Stephan's 1.8t kit. I have not done it yet but I am thinking of using another on the brake pedal to operate the brake lights. A relay and some wiring would be necessary. I am sure the switch is not designed for that type of amperage.
Another way would be to install a late model brake light switch in the bracket for the vacuum vent valve at the brake pedal. |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6357 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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hardway wrote: |
GoWesty sells a switch for cancelling cruise control to replace the vacuum vent switches. I have one on the clutch pedal in my van with Stephan's 1.8t kit. I have not done it yet but I am thinking of using another on the brake pedal to operate the brake lights. A relay and some wiring would be necessary. I am sure the switch is not designed for that type of amperage.
Another way would be to install a late model brake light switch in the bracket for the vacuum vent valve at the brake pedal. |
What late switch are you referring too? I'm confused....
I have the GW cruise control pedal switches from GW, it would be nice to have a dual function switch for being able to use both at the same time, not much room in there. A NC relay would be necessary anyway, for turning the system from NC to NO. _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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hardway Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2012 Posts: 416 Location: Fidalgo Island
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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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Alika, If you already have the GW switch installed at the brake pedal you can T into it to control a relay for the brake lights. The only complication I can forsee is you might need diodes to prevent current back flow.
I hadn't really thought about using a later model switch until composing a response to the original poster. My A4 Golf, B6 Quattro and BMWs all have similar brake and clutch switches. Most of those swiches have 4 poles. I know that the Golf has one switch that is normally open and one that is normally closed. The motor is drive by wire and needs two asymmetrical inputs for redundancy, just like the the throttle pedal sensor.
The newer switches usually push into a socket and then turn to lock into place. They are self adjusting. They might fit into the stock vacuum vent valve mounting bracket or that bracket might require modification to receive the switch. I doubt that you could physically fit more than one switch at a time. |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6357 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9610 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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Alika's repairs are always my favorite reading ! _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6357 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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hardway Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2012 Posts: 416 Location: Fidalgo Island
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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I have been thinking about this since my last reply. The more I think about this the more dangerous the I think that the stock brake light switching system is. I looked at an A4 Golf switch I had in hand. Fabricating a mount for it would be complicated. Using a normally closed switch like the GW unit would be electrically complicated. I remember threaded brake light switches in older Japanese vehicles. I looked for suitable normally open switches at Summit Racing etc.. I looked at some new vacuum vent switches that I have. Then I looked at the vent switches as installed in one of my vans.
I started looking at stock brake light switches in old Japanese vehicles. If you go back to the 80's and early 90's they appear to be suitable. There are different versions for with and without cruise, ie 2 pole and 4 pole. I think that the switches have a 12 millimeter threaded shaft. The OD of the vacuum vent valves is just under 12 mm. I am pretty sure that those switches will fit in the stock bracket for the vacuum vent valves. And if it doesn't it would be easy to make a suitable bracket. I haven't looked at my Syncros without cruise yet, they are covered with snow right now. But I think that I remember that all Vanagons have little dimples in the sheet metal where you drill the holes to mount the brackets to receive the switches.
I have ordered a brake light switch for a 1990 Toyota truck. They are still available on the aftermarket. I ordered a Sankei brand. That is a first tier Japanese supplier so it should be rock solid reliable. They are available in multiple brands. I will install it in my 1.8t equipped bus to verify if it all works. That vehicle has a wire piggybacked onto one of the stock brake light switches as an input to the ECU. I will use piggyback terminals to connect the new switch to the plug at one of the stock switches. If it all works out I will have three functioning brake light switches then for maximum redundancy.
If this plan works out it will be simple to implement and very reliable. An elegant solution. I will report my results here. |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6357 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Ronzo_volvo_guy Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2015 Posts: 194 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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ALIKA T3;
I am always drawn to postings of Brake Light Switches, so I read this thread...and what do I see?...a link to my notes article on the subject (thanks for the reference!), accompanied by post-mortem pictures of a switch which looks much like (no, identical!) to the one I also cut apart during my investigation, and with absolutely identical post-failure forensic evidence! (I was under the impression that mine was a Bosch switch, but the ATE identifier on the mounting surface leaves no doubt as to the manuf.)
I never epoxied my failed switch together, preferring to switch over to a later oe Volvo Pedal Position Sensing Brk Lt Sw, because having identified the root-cause of the failure, I knew such a repair wouldn't last and since it wasn't addressing the root cause, would likely fail in the same manner again...
Question to the VW experts: When did VW change over to PPSBrkLtSws? I'd be interested in what they did, and when, from the VW universe.
Happy New Year from the vintage Volvo universe...may your fuel-lines never deteriorate and become incontinent, may your star grounds remain shiny, clean and snug, and never develop a Voltage Drop (ACZP helps!), and may your Brake Lights always function reliably in 2022! Cheers |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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I don't know if this brand is still available but this is what I installed in my '88
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726039&highlight=switch
I added shrink tube to the female connectors and *gently* "secured" them to the switch body with small cable straps.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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hardway Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2012 Posts: 416 Location: Fidalgo Island
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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Guys and Gals. I have finished installing a pedal position sensing brake light switch in one of my Vanagons. To answer Ronzo Volvo Guy's question about the implementation of pedal position sensing brake light switches in VAG products, I looked in the parts catalogs. The pressure sensing switch continued through the A2 chassis (2nd gen Golf/Jetta). The A3 had a position sensing switch.
The Bus that received the mod has a 1.8t that was installed with a kit from Stephan's. It had factory cruise. The vacuum vent valves were removed. The kit came with the cruise defeat switch from GoWesty for the clutch pedal.
The switch bracket replaces the stock vent valve bracket. In the photo you can see the clip on the pedal that serves as a stop for the vent switch and the GW switch.
This bus had the factory brake vent switch bracket and clip still installed.
. I had to remove the bushing from the bracket that originally received the vent valve.
You can see that there is a hole in the bracket that the pedal switch closes against. I wanted a solid broad surface for the switch to contact. I tried some plastic rivets.
Then off to the hardware store for some 10X1.25 jam nuts. I used a flat washer also. I did not find the results to be satisfactory. The switch was not square to the pedal. Also the switch closed the circuit only when the plunger was completely depressed. The body of the switch had to be in contact with the pedal to complete the circuit. I didn't like the mechanical strain on the components or the lack of margin for error. If the brake lights came on inappropriately I would end up with a dead battery. If the switch did not close reliably then the effort would be wasted. Also the switch was adjusted to the limit of it's travel.
After thinking about it I recalled that the Japanese brake and clutch pedal switches from this era always had some type of pad installed at the thrust surface for the switch. I remember Toyota ones being made of rubber. Being gentle on the switches and crumbling and failing. I ordered a bunch of the pads. The one I ended up using was a Dorman kit for a 1990 Toyota truck. It came with a rubber pad and a plastic pad. The plastic pad was thicker and would suit the geometry better. I measured the waist of the plastic clip that was part of the pad and the bore of the hole in pedal stop. I had to open the hole with a reamer. I wanted to minimize mechanical strain on the pad. By making the pad taller I was able to bend the switch mounting bracket and make the switch perpendicular to the pedal.
Better but not there yet. The switch still had available adjustment now. But the switch itself was still too touchy. I did not like the action. There was no room for error. I got a different brand switch. In an Intermotor box. The action was much better. I now had a closed switch well before the plunger bottomed in the switch.
Now on to the wiring. These brake light switches used a connector housing that was very common on 70s and 80s Japanese vehicles. Fortunately I remembered seeing one in the used connector bin. I took some photos of the bits. I wanted to post some photos of crimps. I used W type and barrel type connectors.
It was important to lash the new loom down safely. It is close to the steering column.
And this is how I T'd into the existing brake light wiring neatly while while preserving the function of the original switches as redundant backups. I have been aware of the variable behavior of the hydraulic brake light switches for years. Their behavior decays with time and use. Since the current will now flow through the position switch before the hydraulic switches close they should remain functioning as redundant backups for the duration.
Be safe! Practice Kaizen (continuing improvement) in all things. |
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Ronzo_volvo_guy Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2015 Posts: 194 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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hardway;
Nice work, attention to detail and documentation!...I expect you now appreciate the earlier and reliable Brk Lt function...
Thanks also for the research on my question...it sounds like VW went to PPBLS pretty late (by my estimate from the models cited, the '80s).
Cheers |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6357 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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hardway Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2012 Posts: 416 Location: Fidalgo Island
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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lights, and pressure switches |
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The brake light switch that I used is for a 1990 Toyota pickup, the part # is
84340 30030
The switch pad that I used is from a Honda
46505 SA5 000
Now I need a find a suitable high mounted center stop lamp assembly that will mount on the tailgate and is Bright! |
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