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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6345 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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markswagen wrote: |
l've been doing this for year, there are holes in the frame, l think where the diesel mounts bolt on, right near the starter, l bolt on to the frame there, to save a long run of copper.
a battery lead out of your local flaps, they have them with a lug at both ends, for those who don't have a big crimping tool. |
I posted the same earlier
ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Mine goes from the Tdi starter on a diesel bellhousing, with a VW studded M8-M12 bolt to one of the M8 bolts at the front of the carrier bar on the passenger side. Short, efficient. Made out of welding cable. These holes are there from factory on every chassis, diesel or not |
It's the best IMO too. _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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slo356 Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2002 Posts: 365 Location: Central Calif Coast
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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ALIKA T3,
Do you have any photos of your specific chassis ground location?
Thanks _________________ '65 T1 Sedan
'87 T3 Syncro |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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If you go under the van and look up there are “holes”.
You can see I used a hole in the frame above the axle. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9075225#9075225
One thing that’s not so great about those holes is some are stepped, and sandwiches, full of paint, rust, or options to allow oxygen and water inside the new ground connections etc.
They’re OK…..and can be sealed etc.
Some vans better than others.
I kinda prefer Duncan’s example for the final .1%.
If I had to name a preference.
Clean, flat, sealable by nut-pressure.
The .1 percenters could put a copper crush-washer under the head and a cap-nut for the full NASA hermetic seal!!
Short cable has a “proper” aesthetic, like you know what you are doing.
But starter-wise, I just want y’all to agree that we’re splitting hairs here, functionally.
Just bolting on a 36” 2AWG ground cable gets you from 80% to 99.9% DONE, in minutes. It bypasses, nullifies a 30-40 year old problem in minutes.
All this discussion of shorter cables and hole hunting is in the realm of that last .1%, functionally.
100% agreed the short direct cable looks more proper.
It is proper.
Compared to how improper the OEM short cable ‘became’ after 30-40 years, and fighting starter problems,,,,,,, the 36” cable and its ease, is kinda beautiful.
Any mechanic worth his/her salt, who’s trying to diagnose your starting problems will agree that “questionable starter groundpath” was wiped off “the short list” with $20 and a few minutes. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3016 Location: MD
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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dobryan wrote: |
4Gears4Tires wrote: |
I ran my ground strap from the alternator to the syncro gas tank strap. Not sure why I would run it all the way to the driveshaft guards. |
I am not sure that is a great idea long term. If that strap ever rusts to almost nothing there will be a lot of resistance and it will heat up. |
I guess if the strap ever starts to look rusty I can move it.
_________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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bajabones Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2019 Posts: 134 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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Which cable
The one with 5/16 or 3/8 ends? _________________ 1990 Syncro Doka
2.1 DJ
Triple Knob
Solid shaft |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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4Gears4Tires wrote: |
I guess if the strap ever starts to look rusty I can move it. |
This thread preaches "eliminate all unnecessary connections" in the ground-path between a high-amperage item and the chassis.
That said, it will likely work well for the next few years while the connections are clean & no corrosion.
And if you ever _have_ a ground path problem, you can detach from the tank strap and ground direct to the chassis.
Alternator can put out 95(?) amps.
If that strap ever got hot, could it melt the plastic tank?
bajabones wrote: |
Which cable
The one with 5/16 or 3/8 ends? |
Ideally it would have 3/8 on the starter end and 5/16 on the chassis end.
But I suppose you gotta get the one with 3/8 on both ends?
3/8 is only a few bucks more, but it's 2AWG right? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6345 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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Ummm. Got the location, but in terms of good contact.................. Could use a it of shining up. And mounting a terminal on top of a nut, gives extra places for corrosion to creep in. Wherever possible I try to have the terminal make direct contact with the body metal. Then cover with a conducting grease.
Duncan |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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Great idea, but why not keep the factory cable too instead of removing it?
Having that long ground cable could be very handy to help you out in a jam too. Like a worst case survival scenario to Mac Gyver up something. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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tjet wrote: |
Great idea, but why not keep the factory cable too instead of removing it?
Having that long ground cable could be very handy to help you out in a jam too. Like a worst case survival scenario to Mac Gyver up something. |
The OEM cable is an insult to the Antiquer.
It’s a poor grounding method that culminates in starting problems when the van gets old.
There shouldn’t be ground paths that require voltage drop testing.
Clutter reduction is reason enough.
You can tell my vote is to remove it 🤣🤣 _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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revolution337 Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2009 Posts: 372 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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Just installed a new ground strap on my van today. Made it out of some leftover 2AWG wire I had from a previous project. It was red though, so I covered the length of it in black heat shrink to avoid confusion during future services. Got the pair of battery end lugs at Harbor Freight, I think $2.99 each. I needed a 1/2" lug for the starter (TDI starter with adapter) and the 3/8" lug worked fine to attach it to the frame.
Short and direct, with just enough slack to allow engine torque movement while running. Applied some dielectric grease, removed the forward OE transaxle ground strap, and fired up the engine to test it out. Works great.
_________________ 1982 Westfalia AEB 1.8t
2017 VW Golf Sportwagen
2001 Audi A4 4.2 V8 swapped
2000 BMW Z3 roadster
-Mark |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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Found some new information.... _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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OK, humor aside, has anybody done the 36" cable method?
Can you post pics?
Everyone wants to show their short cable method.
I understand. It follows best grounding practices. I did it too.
Its aesthetically & mechanically pleasing.
But it makes no 'actual' difference.
The 36" cable is totally valid, and so "do-able" that almost anyone can do it.
It would be great to have a Samba pic so the discussion of how to (or not to) zip-tie it can be discussed.
To be truly reliable, the routing must be reliable, a smaller but worthwhile part of the discussion.
Pics will further "lower the barriers" so regular folks can add this mod and increase reliability in starting.
And it's a simple mod, a good first mod for a budding Vanagon mechanic.
(and perhaps take "AAA" off their speed-dial etc). _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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I don't know if this is 36" but I have a longer cable running from the zetec alternator ground to the starter and then from the starter to the body. I was reading slightly lower voltages (-.1 to -.2?) at the battery compared to the alt (when running) so I wanted to connect the starter directly to the alt on borge the pos and neg sides). The ground from the starter is about 24" and runs to the body in the engine bay. I do like the idea of shorter cables but this is how I did it (4 ga cables).
_________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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4 isn't big enough for the starter. The long original positive is 00. For a short--less than 3 feet--you could use 2. https://www.fastandquiet.com/2-awg-gauge-custom-co...EBEALw_wcB I bought from these guys. There were quick and free shipping. $18 for a three footer.
Duncan |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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I also have a fresh 2ga in the stock location on a newly rebuilt trans so I have the 4ga to augment the oem setup. But I'm contemplating replacing the longer starter > body 4ga with a shorter 2ga to body. crazyvwman here also recommended taking the alt. ground directly to the body which seems rational.
Question for the knowledgable: do these multiple grounds actually augment the ground circuit or will the electrons only flow via the easiest path? For example, if a starter to ground strap is added will the circuit still flow through the transmission case to the trans nose ground if that's easier or will the current flow through multiple paths to ground? What if we add 20 10 ga wires, will the current flow through multiple wires to ground? _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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jimf909 wrote: |
do these multiple grounds actually augment the ground circuit or will the electrons only flow via the easiest path? For example, if a starter to ground strap is added will the circuit still flow through the transmission case to the trans nose ground if that's easier or will the current flow through multiple paths to ground? What if we add 20 10 ga wires, will the current flow through multiple wires to ground? |
Electricity flows like water.
If there's ANY resistance in your new 2ga, then some will make its way towards the front of the trans.
However it can get there, case, bearings, whatever, whenever.
Perhaps not today, but that forward ground is opportunistic.
It will take any electrons __thru your gearbox__ that you are willing to provide.
‘Tis wiser to prevent than to provide.
The far end of your gearbox should be a dead-end that no electrons will flow.
If redundancy is what you want, it's much better to delete it ….
and add a 2nd ground from the other starter bolt to the chassis.
……than to provide a ground that you can find listed in the SKF Bearing Fault Analysis manual, page 55. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Wed May 04, 2022 9:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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Water behavior is often used to explain different aspects of electricity. For example a full bucket of water could be a fully charged battery. An empty bucket a dead battery. Volume of water flowing through a hose or pipe being the equivalent of amperage. The pressure and speed of water flow being a metaphor for voltage.
So let's imagine a bucket filled with water--the voltage source, battery and or alternator. This battery/bucket has a whole bunch of hose connections at the bottom. Some are tiny--18 gauge wire. Some are huge--OO wire. All these hoses go into another bucket--the ground or negative of the battery. If we have the hoses end just below the rim so we can watch the water coming out, we can see which hoses carry the water. Well, duh, they all do. But how much comes out of each. The problem with the 12 gauge wire/hose is that it's really long so there is internal friction and less comes out than the really short 14 gauge wire/hose. And what if the hoses are super old and occluded with crud which has built up on the inside being the equivalent of corrosion in a wire. So one of my 10 gauge wire/hoses is only just barely dripping.
Now the problem with a high load--starter--is we need to dump quite a bit of the water--amperage--quickly from the top bucket to the lower one. We can do it with a gillion small wires/hoses, or a couple of big ones.
Let's go back to the 10 gauge wire/hose which is in tough shape. For explanation purposes pretend this is the tranny/body ground. The wire/hose may not be too occluded, but imagine a bunch of different connections in the hose from bucket A to Bucket B. These connections have restrictions and although the water can find other paths, each water molecule and all his buddies get really bummed when they start down a nice corridor only to find the the door at the end is only partially open. A few of the die hards will go through, but the rest get backed up until they can find an alternative route. The tranny wire is exactly this. Some electrons may flow over the outside of the tranny case, some may go inside where they look for every single possibility. Remember water will seek out any possible path it can find. That's why we have leaks. If the electrons/water molecules were behaved, they would just stay in the wire/hose, but like many teenagers, they don't pay attention to what we say or want. The tranny itself is like a bucket with a gillion hose outlets. Thus some will seek out gear shafts, and then migrate across various gears--and if there is a small gap between the gear teeth, the electrons will jump across creating a spark which means some of the metal on the gear teeth will disappear. This is not good because these pits take away the surface area needed to transfer the loads--power to the wheels. As the surface is reduced, especially with non smooth surfaces, pressure on the teeth is increased and wear increases. Wear is not something to go out of your way to encourage.
The long and the short of it is all wires will carry some, but when in doubt, keep the wires/hoses away from delicate stuff which is expensive to replace. Wires work more better than tranny teeth to carry the load. Thus, put in the biggest, shortest clean and shiny ground straps you can and get rid of the original tranny ground.
Duncan |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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These are very helpful responses. Thank you. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Direct starter to chassis - DIY ground cable strap |
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I added a direct alternator-to-chassis ground today too.
Just knowing that if I camp a few days with no solar,
my 130A alternator could put out full power for "hours"
and I wanted to ward off any OTHER forms of electrical deviltry. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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