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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:06 pm Post subject: Backseat Battery |
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| I've got an 85 tin-top with a Ford 2.0 engine. When it's cold it doesn't turn over very well despite the battery being 6 months old and fully charged. Not sure if the long 37 year old battery cable has corrosion causing this, the Pinto engine takes more oomph to turn over than the original 1.9L, or if my starter is starting to get worn out, but I am considering moving the battery under the back seat so I can run a short new positive lead to the starter. My question is, if I just leave the original wiring in place and put a second battery under the seat wired directly to the starter and ground to the seat belt bolt right there, essentially two batteries in parallel. Does anyone see a problem with this? I figure it can't hurt to have some extra battery power for camping and tailgating. Should one be a deep cycle battery? And if so do I need some additional connections/breakers/etc to do so safely? I know it will take longer to charge the pair of batteries. I just feel like having a short run from the battery to the starter (as well as a second battery providing additional cranking power) will help provide better and more consistent starting, and by leaving a second battery hooked up in the original place I don't need to remove, tape off, worry about those wires under the passenger seat. I am waiting for GoWesty to get some more 1.4kW gear reduction starters in stock just cause I like knowing I have a solid starter in there. I also have a hot start relay wired in already which seemed to help during nice weather but in the frigid cold I'm having to jump start it. Thanks in advance. |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16508
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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Before you go to all that trouble you should inspect the condition of the positive and negative connectors and cable at the starting battery, at the starter, and the ground cable at the nose of the transmission. Once you know that these are in good condition then you can proceed to the next step. You cannot just look at them while they are attached, you need to take them off and look for corrosion where they attach and corrosion in the cable wires itself.
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'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2325
Location: Bay area CA
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vanagonjr
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Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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ledogboy 
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2005
Posts: 578
Location: Scappoose, OR / Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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I recently swapped my positive battery cable due to sluggish starting with a brand new battery. The amount of corrosion was expected, but still pretty impressive.
_________________
1986 Westy Weekender
Now a full camper
1.8t Syncro conversion
Some people call him Maurice... |
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| ledogboy wrote: |
| I recently swapped my positive battery cable due to sluggish starting with a brand new battery. The amount of corrosion was expected, but still pretty impressive. |
I thought about getting some number 2 welding wire and just replacing it. Do you feel like that got you back to a reliable state? Relieve the sluggish starting? |
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ledogboy
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2005
Posts: 578
Location: Scappoose, OR / Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| christiancarpenter42 wrote: |
| ledogboy wrote: |
| I recently swapped my positive battery cable due to sluggish starting with a brand new battery. The amount of corrosion was expected, but still pretty impressive. |
I thought about getting some number 2 welding wire and just replacing it. Do you feel like that got you back to a reliable state? Relieve the sluggish starting? |
I’m pretty sure I used 2/0? Though I know earlier years used a smaller gauge (not sure where the split is). Starts were better for sure, but I only got a few days worth of data before I found myself in Flatbed City, and I don’t think the van will be running for awhile. Sigh.
It’s a super easy project, and probably worth tackling if you still have an original cable.
_________________
1986 Westy Weekender
Now a full camper
1.8t Syncro conversion
Some people call him Maurice... |
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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Thanks! I've got some heavy cable with eyelets on both ends. I'll do that tomorrow. |
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Before you go to all that trouble you should inspect the condition of the positive and negative connectors and cable at the starting battery, at the starter, and the ground cable at the nose of the transmission. Once you know that these are in good condition then you can proceed to the next step. You cannot just look at them while they are attached, you need to take them off and look for corrosion where they attach and corrosion in the cable wires itself. |
Battery connections are new. Going to try the ground replacement posted above tomorrow to rule out ground issues. Thanks for your input. |
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| ledogboy wrote: |
It’s a super easy project, and probably worth tackling if you still have an original cable. |
Wish I had done it three weeks ago when I was replacing the gas tank. The weather was still nice and I didn't know this issue was coming. Haha. |
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| So tomorrow I'll do a voltage drop test (and start rounding up some new battery cable to replace the original if it's corroded beyond an acceptable limit) and install a new grounding wire off the starter. In addition to that, does anyone see any issues with the original plan of moving the battery back under the rear seat for a shorter run to the starter (and possibly having a second battery in the original location)? I want to give the starter every possible advantage during the cold months as well as having reserve battery power for camping. |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| Pretty sure the OG bat to starter wires is 00. |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16508
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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I'd be curious what the engine compression is. And curious to see pics of you engine conversion too. 
On my '88 with stock somewhat low compression 2.1 WBX, the OE Bosch starter would turn "ok" or really slow. After that starter was rebuilt it turned faster but still had the occasional slow turn. I replaced the long positive cable with a NOS cable. The old cable had what appeared to be significant corrosion. This might be subjective but it *seemed* to turn faster. But, it still had moments of real slow turning most likely due to heat soak. After that I chose to change starter type. I installed Karl Mullendores adaptor and VW inline gas engine after market "cheap" starter.
For me, the issue was the original Bosch starter. They're old, cores are old.
Both my '81 and '88 have the same VW inline gas engine conversion and after market starter. I haven't checked engine compression but the '88 likely has higher compression. In ~ -3 Cº, both turn fine though the '88 turns a *little* faster. The '81 has an original smaller gauge positive cable from an '85.
Neil.
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16508
Location: Brookeville, MD
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Once you get the system up to snuff the need for two batteries should go away. YMMV. |
I agree with this. My concern is that after 37 years much of the wiring could be starting to corrode, and short of replacing it all I was just trying to come up with a plan that would help with the least amount of rewiring. The van itself has no rust and is in great shape, I'm just not sure about the wiring. I just figure shorter is better.
I didn't get around to working on it much today but one thing I did yesterday was to rewire the radio so that it wasn't drawing any power when the key isn't on. I put a trickle charger on it last night so I could make sure I was starting with a full battery today. It fired up great this morning (much warmer than the last few days so not an apples for apples comparison) and I drove arond for awhile (50 miles or so). I noticed on my cigarette lighter (upgraded to a more modern VW power port) battery/alternator reader that my alternator is only putting out about 13.5 volts while cruising and right around 13 with my lights on (even less with full heater fans blowing). Wondering if it is getting old now (it's a Bosch that came off the 1.9 VW engine). I do notice when I start the van the red alternator/battery light stays on until I throttle up to 1500 rpm's or so, which according to my gauge is when it hits mid to upper 13s on the volt meter. Anther concern as an above poster mentioned is that the old Bosch starter may be on it's last legs. Fun fun. At least I don't mind making repairs as long as they work. Haha. |
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I'd be curious what the engine compression is. And curious to see pics of you engine conversion too.
For me, the issue was the original Bosch starter. They're old, cores are old.
Neil. |
Not sure what the original compression is. Mid 9s I would guess. I may have the timing a bit advanced but it's where it runs best with the vacuum advance dizzy. The starter may be suspect and I'm in the market for a gear reduction unit.
I'll try to get some pictures together but I have had a hard time loading them here at times. |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16508
Location: Brookeville, MD
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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christiancarpenter42
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2020
Posts: 29
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Backseat Battery |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Test the alternator output right at the alternator then at the battery. If there is a significant difference then the wiring and connections are suspect. |
This is definitely on my list. Thanks for the confirmation. |
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