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Starting project advice.
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:26 am    Post subject: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

I pulled the locked up engine from my 73 sb vert yesterday. It was running a few years ago but I let it sit. Hoping it just needs new jugs and pistons. When it ran it was measuring 110 to 115 psi on all cylinders, so I think it was getting tired anyway. I may have cross threaded the #4 cylinder spark plug earlier, I haven't started taking things apart yet. Also, when I was pulling the engine I buggered up the inner edges of the transaxle holes where the two studs on the bottom of the engine caught it as I was wiggling and lowering it. Hoping I haven't ruined anything.

Anyway, my question...I'm trying to decide how to rebuild the top of this engine. This is a no title car, so probably won't ever be worth much. I'm not interested in a road burner, but wouldn't mind a little extra pep to just drive it around locally on weekends. First time removing and building an engine for me, so I'd like to keep it as simple as possible. Should I just plan on buying new heads while I'm at it? Any thoughts on what direction to take this, where I can get decent rebuild kits, etc?
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virusdoc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

To answer your immediate question:

For a simple upper end rebuild that yields a bit more power than stock, I'd recommend thick walled 88 mm P/C:

https://aapistons.com/products/88x69mm-1700cc-machine-in-85-5-case-90-5-head

And AA 500 heads with larger valves cut to fit the 88 mm cylinders:

https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performanc...ead-40x355

To answer the more important question you didn't ask: Is it a good idea to put a new top end on a bottom end in unknown condition? No.

At a minimum, while you have the engine out, you should carefully assess crankshaft endplay to see how much wear the crank, bearings, and case have endured. Other things you can and should check include main oil seal leakage, flywheel wear on all friction surfaces, clutch and pressure plate condition, connecting rod wrist pin surface dimensions, oil pump cover leakage, oil cooler seal integrity.

What do you know about the history of the engine? How many miles? Ever rebuilt?
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1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire)
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

The bad spark plug thread on the cylinder head can be repaired, readily. Since you'd be taking the heads off anyway, let a machine shop fix that.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

The bad spark plug thread on the cylinder head can be repaired, readily. Since you'd be taking the heads off anyway, let a machine shop fix that.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

Thanks for tips. Yes, I had checking out lower end, clutch, etc in back of my mind. Was waiting until I got the top end off to start researching that. I call it "just in time learning". 😁

I don't know history of the engine. I don't think it's original to the car. Someone put Chrome valve covers, a chrome alternator pully, and a numbered timing pulls on the crank. It's all pretty nasty looking. Lots of grease caked on it. I'm hoping I don't have to split open the crankcase.
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virusdoc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:51 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

hosocat wrote:
Thanks for tips. Yes, I had checking out lower end, clutch, etc in back of my mind. Was waiting until I got the top end off to start researching that. I call it "just in time learning". 😁

I don't know history of the engine. I don't think it's original to the car. Someone put Chrome valve covers, a chrome alternator pully, and a numbered timing pulls on the crank. It's all pretty nasty looking. Lots of grease caked on it. I'm hoping I don't have to split open the crankcase.


All of those (tacky) mods could have been made without replacing the engine. What is the engine code stamped on the case, just below the "Zundfolge 1-4-3-2" inscription on the oil fill/alternator stand?

Post some photos of your engine using the gallery feature so we can see what you're dealing with.

When the engine last ran for you, how was the performance? Do you even know with certainty that it is a stock 1600?
_________________
1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire)


Last edited by virusdoc on Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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virusdoc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

hosocat wrote:
Also, when I was pulling the engine I buggered up the inner edges of the transaxle holes where the two studs on the bottom of the engine caught it as I was wiggling and lowering it. Hoping I haven't ruined anything.



This damage is common. Mine are a bit scuffed and rounded. As long as the damage is superficial and you didn't crack the bell housing or the engine case where the studs attach, you should be fine. Replace the lower engine studs to ensure they are straight and the threads are in good shape.
_________________
1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire)
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

The engine was a lot more difficult to remove than I thought it would be. I even took off the muffler to give me more "slide back" room. But I pulled the engine back until it was hitting the rear apron and the bottom studs were still hanging on to the trans. Might just be I don't have the technique figured out yet, because this is my first engine pull.
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BIGMIKEY
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

hosocat wrote:

This is a no title car, so probably won't ever be worth much.


Explain further if you would please. I wouldn't put a cent into it until you have the title/ownership sorted out.

Where are you located?

Mike T
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=

1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue.
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

I'm in Alabama. In Alabama you can register an older car with just a bill of sale. I'm not sure how old the car has to be. I think it might be pre 1975. I can sell the car to someone who wants to register the car in Alabama, but it gets difficult if you're from another state and want to buy it.
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BIGMIKEY
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

So you got it handled. Good.

Mike T
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Deserter Series 1 project.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=

1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue.
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johnnyvw164
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

Connecticut is the same way, no title only registration after a certain age of the cars. My 69 was like that. Had some additional hoops to jump through getting it titled in PA (no big deal, just additional verification)
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are pics of the engine I pulled out of my super beetle vert. I don't know anything about the history, so any info would be appreciated. I haven't started disassembly yet. The serial no. On the engine is ak056106.
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virusdoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

AK engine code is a 1973 1600. That is likely the original engine, although it may have been rebuilt.
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1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire)
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virusdoc
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

But as for details about the engine, this can be gleaned from the photos:

-Not the original carb, and probably not a very high quality replacement copy of a 34PICT3. What did the air cleaner look like? I'm betting a small silver circular pancake, rather than the longer snorkel that the 73's shipped with.

-Distributor is not the original. I believe this would have shipped with an SVDA (vacuum advance) distributor, part 113-905-205-T. The non vacuum advance version you currently have can contribute to poor acceleration at low rpm.

-Fuel pump has been replaced

-Most of your tins seem to be present, which is good. The engine has clearly been out of that beetle before and someone did a rattle can repaint on them. The upper cylinder tin on the 3/4 side is pretty mangled, and in its current state is going to have a nasty air gap that will increase engine temps. The rear under cylinder tin on the 1/2 side looks to be badly bent, although it may simple be loose. I cannot tell if the 3/4 under cylinder tin is present. Nor can I tell if the sled tins that go between the case and heat exchangers were present.

-Heat exchangers are there and look to be in decent shape, so if the ductwork and control wires are intact this beetle could have functional heat, at least to the floor. Is there a thermostat underneath cylinder 1/2?

-This is either the original engine case or one pulled from another 1973. If the car has been driven a reasonable amount, it's safe to assume the engine lower end has been rebuilt at least once, since someone clearly had all the tins off of it. Check endplay at the flywheel while you have it off to get a sense for how worn it might be--although I'd try to get the engine rotating first.

-To try to get the engine freed up, you'll need to know the general state of things in the combustion chambers and in the crankcase. Have you drained the oil? Was there water in it? If so, bodes poorly. If you have not drained it, get it up on a stand (or a makeshift stand--I've used two cinder blocks under each heat exchanger before) and do so.

-To assess the upper end, remove all four spark plugs and try to get a look in the cylinders. If you have small inspection camera, these work great. Hopefully you will not see a giant puddle of mud and rust, but since at least some of the valves were open while it was parked, if there was any route for water ingress (perhaps down the carb throat) you will likely have some water that has puddled in there.

-To try to free up the cylinders, spray WD40 or liquid wrench in each, liberally, and sit them over night.

All of this will be easier to judge if you start to get the tins and accessories off.

Post pics and we'll try to help where we can. Good luck!
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1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire)
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips. It's sitting on the ground right now. I'm trying to review YouTube to get familiar with disassembly procedures. It did have one of those chrome pancake air filters. Like an idiot I left the air cleaner off after fiddling with the engine while it was still running (poorly). Then I lost interest and left it sitting in weather. I suspect water went down carb throat and caused corrosion which has stuck the engine.

Considering this may be the only vw engine I rebuild, is it worth buying one of the vw rotating engine stands to get it at a more comfortable height?
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

Well, I went with the "stick a couple cinder blocks under it" approach. I was going to get an engine stand, but harbor freight won't get any in for a couple weeks. Managed to spill a quart or so of old oil out of engine while doing it. I'm sure the old heads are chuckling.

I got the dog house off and in doing so discovered a po had totally removed the thermostat. Any ideas why someone would do that?
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virusdoc
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

hosocat wrote:
Well, I went with the "stick a couple cinder blocks under it" approach. I was going to get an engine stand, but harbor freight won't get any in for a couple weeks. Managed to spill a quart or so of old oil out of engine while doing it. I'm sure the old heads are chuckling.

I got the dog house off and in doing so discovered a po had totally removed the thermostat. Any ideas why someone would do that?


Lots of reasons, none of them terribly good. Many think they are unnecessary, many fear the stat will fail in the closed position and result in an overheat. Some have a busted thermostat and can’t find a good one to replace it. Some can’t make sense of all the levers and flappy things and are afraid they won’t be able to get it to work correctly.
_________________
1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire)
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hosocat
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

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These are my heads. I'm trying to decide if they are OK to clean up and reuse, or if I should buy complete new heads with my new jugs and pistons. Bottom end seems solid and rotates freely. There is no end play on crank that I can detect by pushing and pulling timing pulls. Is there a better check a diyer can do to check soundness of bottom end?

Also, water got into the rocker cover and two cylinders on passenger side. The rocker arm on pax side is corroded and rocker arms are stuck and won't rotate on shaft. When this happens is it worth trying to rehab them or are they junk now?
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virusdoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting project advice. Reply with quote

The heads don't look that bad. If you clean them up with some solvent it will be easier to tell if there is any cracking between the valves. EDIT: I think I see a crack between the right plug hole and the intake valve on the lower photo. What part numbers are stamped on them (under the rocker cover area)?

As for the rocker assemblies, used (or new) stock rockers aren't that expensive. For example:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1725266

But you can try soaking them overnight with a liberal spray of penetrating solvent (liquid wrench or similar) and see if they loosen up. I expect the shafts will be pitted and not usable. Maybe post some pics.

And on the lower end--how did the oil look? Full of water? It's unlikely that water would get into the cylinders and not have some eventual leak through into the case. Carefully examine the area around the oil filter strainer cover for corrosion, since that is where the water would settle.

How do the connecting rods look?
_________________
1976 Convertible Super Beetle, "June Bug".
FI-->34PICT3 carb conversion-->now dual 40 IDFs
Self-rebuilt 1904 (after totally botching a 1641 rebuild, cussing a lot, and throwing lots of cash in the fire)
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