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steve244
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

I'm not orange with a white top.

ok maybe I am...
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nbvolks
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

steve244 wrote:

nbvolks wrote:

I think ours is more of a looker than the Leaf. 😉


Compensation?


Huh? I was jokingly playing off of your complaint that the Leaf "is totally not sexy".
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Q-Dog wrote:
oprn wrote:
It matters not if the AC/DC conversion is done in your car or in your home. It takes a completely different device to reverse the process. Is your car actually capable of doing this right now?


I have an inverter/charger hanging on my wall that converts 24v DC into 120v AC and 120v AC into 24v DC. One way converts battery power into house power and the other way converts AC from a generator into charging current for the batteries. Most of the time the battery bank is charged from solar panels, but if we get a week of no sun I can charge the battery bank with whatever AC supply I have available, no extra device needed.

So clearly, it DOES NOT take an entirely different device. It just takes someone with an open mind and exposure to things outside of their own little world.

If you were to take that device apart and analyze the circuitry you would indeed find that it is not the same circuit that does both jobs. To quote someone's signature here "Electrickery does not work that way!". There are two completely different separate circuits to accomplish that. The switch over may be manual or it may be solid state and switch automatically depending on system voltages but one circuit cannot do both jobs. In your case you have two devices housed in one.

Do you have one device in your home/car that plays both CDs and the radio? No you don't! It may share a common cabinet but it is not one single device.

You don't have to believe me just ask any competent electrician or better yet an electrical engineer.
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nbvolks
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
oprn wrote:
It matters not if the AC/DC conversion is done in your car or in your home. It takes a completely different device to reverse the process. Is your car actually capable of doing this right now?


I have an inverter/charger hanging on my wall that converts 24v DC into 120v AC and 120v AC into 24v DC. One way converts battery power into house power and the other way converts AC from a generator into charging current for the batteries. Most of the time the battery bank is charged from solar panels, but if we get a week of no sun I can charge the battery bank with whatever AC supply I have available, no extra device needed.

So clearly, it DOES NOT take an entirely different device. It just takes someone with an open mind and exposure to things outside of their own little world.

If you were to take that device apart and analyze the circuitry you would indeed find that it is not the came circuit that does both jobs. There are two completely different separate circuits to accomplish that. The switch over may be manual or it may be solid state and switch automatically depending on system voltages but one circuit cannot do both jobs.


I'm trying to understand what your point is here. It doesn't change the fact that:

1. There are some EVs that have this function.
2. Those that do handle it (the DC to AC conversion) on-board, and not via the EVSE or some other device in the house. The EVSE may need a transfer switch of some sort maybe, if your electric provider doesn't allow for power to be sent back to the grid, essentially making V2H your only option.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

and you use acronyms excessively.

(I'm kidding!!! same with "compensation". must remember to use smilies.)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

nbvolks wrote:
1. There are some EVs that have this function.
2. Those that do handle it (the DC to AC conversion) on-board, and not via the EVSE or some other device in the house. The EVSE may need a transfer switch of some sort maybe, if your electric provider doesn't allow for power to be sent back to the grid, essentially making V2H your only option.

I can accept that. The way it was written gave me the impression that it was a given - if you had an EV, (any EV was how I took it) you could power your home with it. That was why I called BS!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Ok, clear this up for me. If the charging device is in the EV then why do you guys talk about having to install a charger at your home? Would not a single circuit with a breaker with the correct current rating and the appropriate plug be all that's needed? Why then the $800 Siemens device?

Mixed messages...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

The car has to be plugged-in to a smart device that won't let it draw too much power, tripping the breaker, or allow you to start the car and drive off with it plugged in.

"charger" is a misnomer. Charging station is more apt. It doesn't change voltage or current.

I bought a permanent charging "station" as that was all the rage 4 years ago. It has a thick gauge cable so I can charge at the car's full rate. I wired a 50 amp 220V circuit out to the carport for it.

You can buy cheap charging cables that are limited to 16amps @220V, but that's no fun. The device communicates with the car telling it the max draw.

My wall charger has settings if I want to reduce the current if the house's wiring can't handle the full rate. It just communicates this to the car (and I guess trips its breaker if the rate exceeds that).

The car came with a 120v smart charging cable, but even on a leaf that would be unsatisfying.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Ok, clear this up for me. If the charging device is in the EV then why do you guys talk about having to install a charger at your home? Would not a single circuit with a breaker with the correct current rating and the appropriate plug be all that's needed? Why then the $800 Siemens device?

Mixed messages...


The wall charger, or what I'm referring to as an EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment), is basically just a fancy outlet with a fixed plug to attach to the car. It saves you from having to plug into the car and into a 240v wall outlet, which typically isn't designed for repeated plugging and unplugging.

The additional feature is that they typically employ some form of cable management, or basically a way to hang up the cable in a tidy fashion. They also generally offer a longer cable than the one provided with the car. Depending on your car, and the cable that comes with it, an EVSE can provide higher amperage, allowing you to charge the car more quickly.

Some EVSEs are "smart", in that they offer an app, and you can program charging hours, so you can take advantage of reduced electric rates. Others are "dumb" in that they're literally nothing more than a way to pass power to the car.

All home EVSEs that I'm aware of are AC, operate at 220-240 volts, and vary on what the max amperage of the circuit they're on can be, but it could be as much as 50 amps if being plugged into an NEMA 14-50 outlet, or up to 80 amps if hardwired.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

well that's not a mixed message. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

steve244 wrote:
well that's not a mixed message. Wink


I'd say we tag teamed that pretty well!

One thing I'd also add (because why not?) is that you can also charge from your typical 120v 15amp outlet you find throughout your house. Most EVs provide an adapter for the cable that comes with the car. Some, like Tesla, have stopped providing this as part of the purchase to save costs, but it's still an option.

I know a few people that charge this way, but I don't recommend it, unless you drive infrequently, as it's a slow way to charge! But in a pinch, it's an option if you need it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

nbvolks wrote:


What I don't say is that an EV is right for everyones' use cases....yet. But I think that people that dismiss them out of hand, or dis/misinformation are doing themselves a disservice.


Exactly!!

The billions in capital expenditures for infrastructure and facilities to switch from ICE to EV was occurring several years before I retired from the auto industry in 2020. The plug isn't going to be pulled.

For all the arguments about how this will not work I can say with a high degree of confidence that EV's will be dead common.
The end date for (most) ICE production is 2040. That's only 17 years from now. By 2025 EV production will outpace ICE output and increase each year thereafter.

The big oil co's will be mining and refining just like always, just different.
Who knows, we might be buying BP, Shell or Exxon batteries.
One thing for sure, the refiners will own and maintain the charging infrastructure.

Murkier to my mind is how we are going to be taxed but it will be figured out and we will probably hate how that's going to be accomplished.

These changes will not fit with everyone's idea of motivation or environmental responsibly/ irresponsibility but change is coming. It can't be stopped.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

kingkarmann wrote:

One thing for sure, the refiners will own and maintain the charging infrastructure.


Agree with everything you said, though I'm less aligned with this one.

I think we can agree that the existing gas station model will fade away, and isn't ideal or appealing in an "EV world". There are exceptions of course, like on interstates, or long stretches of rural highways. But I think in urban and suburban areas you'll see more and more businesses continue to provide charging either as a free incentive to patrons, or pay to plug (patron or not). I could see that working as it is now, with charging companies offering a franchise style, like ChargePoint, installing and maintaining the stations and giving a cut back to the businesses. Or an owner/operator model, where a company sells complete units to businesses for them to operate and maintain on their own.

There's nothing stopping the existing oil & gas companies from entering that space, but I haven't seen them move that direction. They seem locked in on adding charging stations to existing gas stations, which to me, doesn't seem like a good long-term investment.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

nbvolks wrote:
They seem locked in on adding charging stations to existing gas stations, which to me, doesn't seem like a good long-term investment.


The current fueling stations for ICE cars have a network of distributors ready to load up the filling stations with cold beer, Slim Jimís, Tobacco, and soda. Thatís high margin profits. Regardless of what energy source is being supplied for cars. The sundries will hold the highest profit margins.

A business with a family of 4 waiting for a 20 minute EV charge has a better chance of buying beef jerky, fountain drinks, and shitty hot dogs, then the family filling up gas for 5 minutes. So why would a gas station selling electricity be any different?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

kingkarmann wrote:
nbvolks wrote:


What I don't say is that an EV is right for everyones' use cases....yet. But I think that people that dismiss them out of hand, or dis/misinformation are doing themselves a disservice.


Exactly!!

The billions in capital expenditures for infrastructure and facilities to switch from ICE to EV was occurring several years before I retired from the auto industry in 2020. The plug isn't going to be pulled.



I just received this in my inbox...
https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases/honda-announces-next-steps-in-preparation-for-us-ev-production
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

" The plug isn't going to be pulled."

I can always hope, can't I?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

steve244 wrote:
"charger" is a misnomer.

That right there explains a lot, thanks! It's just a current limited cord.


...for $800? Shocked
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Xevin wrote:
nbvolks wrote:
They seem locked in on adding charging stations to existing gas stations, which to me, doesn't seem like a good long-term investment.


The current fueling stations for ICE cars have a network of distributors ready to load up the filling stations with cold beer, Slim Jimís, Tobacco, and soda. Thatís high margin profits. Regardless of what energy source is being supplied for cars. The sundries will hold the highest profit margins.

A business with a family of 4 waiting for a 20 minute EV charge has a better chance of buying beef jerky, fountain drinks, and shitty hot dogs, then the family filling up gas for 5 minutes. So why would a gas station selling electricity be any different?


But that's how you think about fueling now. You don't need to charge the same way you fuel a car. Even as charging gets quicker, there's a benefit to being able to charge where you are, rather than have to go to where the charge is. In other words, if I'm already going to a restaurant, I pull up and charge while I'm eating. I don't need to go to yet another place to wait and charge.

That entire network of distributors exists because there needs to be tanks of petrol/diesel in the ground where they are. Electricity can be nearly anywhere you want it to be.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

nbvolks wrote:
Xevin wrote:
nbvolks wrote:
They seem locked in on adding charging stations to existing gas stations, which to me, doesn't seem like a good long-term investment.


The current fueling stations for ICE cars have a network of distributors ready to load up the filling stations with cold beer, Slim Jimís, Tobacco, and soda. Thatís high margin profits. Regardless of what energy source is being supplied for cars. The sundries will hold the highest profit margins.

A business with a family of 4 waiting for a 20 minute EV charge has a better chance of buying beef jerky, fountain drinks, and shitty hot dogs, then the family filling up gas for 5 minutes. So why would a gas station selling electricity be any different?


But that's how you think about fueling now. You don't need to charge the same way you fuel a car. Even as charging gets quicker, there's a benefit to being able to charge where you are, rather than have to go to where the charge is. In other words, if I'm already going to a restaurant, I pull up and charge while I'm eating. I don't need to go to yet another place to wait and charge.

That entire network of distributors exists because there needs to be tanks of petrol/diesel in the ground where they are. Electricity can be nearly anywhere you want it to be.


Solid point. I appreciate that post Applause
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
oprn wrote:
It matters not if the AC/DC conversion is done in your car or in your home. It takes a completely different device to reverse the process. Is your car actually capable of doing this right now?


I have an inverter/charger hanging on my wall that converts 24v DC into 120v AC and 120v AC into 24v DC. One way converts battery power into house power and the other way converts AC from a generator into charging current for the batteries. Most of the time the battery bank is charged from solar panels, but if we get a week of no sun I can charge the battery bank with whatever AC supply I have available, no extra device needed.

So clearly, it DOES NOT take an entirely different device. It just takes someone with an open mind and exposure to things outside of their own little world.

If you were to take that device apart and analyze the circuitry you would indeed find that it is not the same circuit that does both jobs. To quote someone's signature here "Electrickery does not work that way!". There are two completely different separate circuits to accomplish that. The switch over may be manual or it may be solid state and switch automatically depending on system voltages but one circuit cannot do both jobs. In your case you have two devices housed in one.

Do you have one device in your home/car that plays both CDs and the radio? No you don't! It may share a common cabinet but it is not one single device.

You don't have to believe me just ask any competent electrician or better yet an electrical engineer.


I'm not sure what you are trying to prove but ... Ho-lee-carp man! You said, "It takes a completely different device to reverse the process."

I don't care what happens inside the box. It is just one device. I don't need an electrician or an engineer to show me that I have one box hanging on my wall that inverts DC to AC and AC to DC. I installed it. I ran the AC and DC circuits into it. I programmed it to do what I want it to do. I don't care what kind of voodoo happens inside the box to convert one kind of power into the other. I just know that it is in fact one device. Rolling Eyes
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