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whobba
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Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 871
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 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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Removed the side trim and did more detail washing of the 412, lots of dirt and dust in all the crevices.
Both front fenders and the hood were replaced - probably part of the early 80's crash repair invoice that came with the records - , everything but the roof is a repaint. Tons of nicks and little dents and misc. damages; but I like the character of it. The front fender gaps around the trunk opening are hilariously off, most of the beading is gone - but I have new from ISP west (the flat kind) and a roll of round beading for the front fenders.
The rear engine hatch has death foam sprayed in the lower middle; just like the late beetles crescent vents. Going to have to chip that stuff out.
There's a little rust at the lower driver's front fender lower rear wheel arch; deep ugly rust.
It's probably going to take me a couple years of tinkering to get it back together clean and complete.
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:36 am Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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Yes, to do it right it takes alot of time and patience.
Just wondering if you are taking the front fenders off, or are you sure there is no cancer present? When I removed mine I was shocked at the amount of rust! It was mostly surface rust but some places had been eaten through on the inner body. I had to remove alot of the inside fender paint and repair. Finished it all off with coatings of Master Series paint/rust encapsulator. I would strongly recommend removing ALL the fenders.
Bill |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
Yes, to do it right it takes alot of time and patience.
Just wondering if you are taking the front fenders off, or are you sure there is no cancer present? When I removed mine I was shocked at the amount of rust! It was mostly surface rust but some places had been eaten through on the inner body. I had to remove alot of the inside fender paint and repair. Finished it all off with coatings of Master Series paint/rust encapsulator. I would strongly recommend removing ALL the fenders.
Bill |
Yes.....^^^^^^
Bear in mind that a lot of the little rust throughs along the rear vertical seams of the front fenders and down in the lower corner area....are too thin to weld.....and hard to get behind to do so.
But a lot of those "constellations of pin holes...being that the area is not structural enough to worry about unless you have whole sheets of metal gone....you can fill and permanently seal those pinhole constellations with master series silver. Ray |
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whobba
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 871
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:18 am Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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I tried to remove the old front seat upholstery and reuse it after covering the seats, but the thread is too old and just ripped out at the seams. I really didn't want to replace the seat upholstery, but decided that I really have to.
I reached out to a couple of the main VW upholstery places, and they each wanted about $2,600 to do just the front seats - without the back seat panel and its pleated pocket, which I will reuse and not including the head rest covers. Stupid expensive and not worth it at all. Absolutely dumb price quotes. Really made me feel sick inside to think that this is where we've ended up in the VW hobby world. Perhaps this was the "we don't want to do it" price.
So, I found a local shop, drove out there yesterday and for both front seat covers AND the headrests, $800. Less than 1/3 the cost of the well known VW upholstery shops - and this includes remaking the head rest covers. This shop has done lots of VW's in the past, and he showed me some photos - absolutely excellent work. Just goes to show, check with your local shops first before feeding the industry monsters.
Anyhow, I'll post updates in a few weeks when the covers are done! I've been working on restuffing and repairing the seat frames, trying to stay true to the original and using a horse hair like padding.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:56 am Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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| whobba wrote: |
I tried to remove the old front seat upholstery and reuse it after covering the seats, but the thread is too old and just ripped out at the seams. I really didn't want to replace the seat upholstery, but decided that I really have to.
I reached out to a couple of the main VW upholstery places, and they each wanted about $2,600 to do just the front seats - without the back seat panel and its pleated pocket, which I will reuse and not including the head rest covers. Stupid expensive and not worth it at all. Absolutely dumb price quotes. Really made me feel sick inside to think that this is where we've ended up in the VW hobby world. Perhaps this was the "we don't want to do it" price.
So, I found a local shop, drove out there yesterday and for both front seat covers AND the headrests, $800. Less than 1/3 the cost of the well known VW upholstery shops - and this includes remaking the head rest covers. This shop has done lots of VW's in the past, and he showed me some photos - absolutely excellent work. Just goes to show, check with your local shops first before feeding the industry monsters.
Anyhow, I'll post updates in a few weeks when the covers are done! I've been working on restuffing and repairing the seat frames, trying to stay true to the original and using a horse hair like padding. |
Ok....think about this first:
For those of us who are working to make really nice 411 and 412 cars...straight...as rust free as possible...original but maybe improved running gear and brakes........but not really worried about "EXACT" full restoration level of detail....as long as what we put into the car "looks", works and "appears" as similar as possible........there are other ways.
The 411/412 front seats are very nice...but WAAAAAY too complex....especially the seat back, recline and tilt mechanisms. LOTS of parts.
There are are HUGE number of parts and assemblies I need to spend money and time on before my car ever sees the road again. If I were trying to do exact stock or all NOS....I could spend $100k on this car.
Also, a lot of parts over the years I have had to fabricate (struts, brake parts, body seals etc.). The R&D for that, tools...machine shop time etc.....by the time I get this car painted and driving again I will probably have ~$40k in it....and it will NOT be a "restoration". It will just be very nice...look right....and drive like nobody's business.
So when I get down to my own seats I have a different answer in mind. I am going a different direction.
https://procarbyscat.com/product/pro-90-series-1300/
These seats are high quality and are approximately the same dimensions as our seats.
I have looked at my stock seat frames....and as we know...the back assembly can be unbolted from the seat assembly. And.....the seat base/cushion frame assembly....cn be detached from the slider base assembly that meets up with the tracks that are mounted to the floor.
With me so far?
Now that we have the bare slider assembly and frame with the two plastic base cover assemblies....it is not a big deal at all to attache the base of the Procar 90 seat to it.
I will next do a little surgery and hand sewing and swap out the Procar 90 head rest for the actual 411/412 head rest.
I have enough sewing skills to sew new covers and zippers for my existing foam 411/412 seat head rests,
And...I contacted Scat a couple of years back and asked if there were any way to get these seats wit ha specific color of vinyl or perhaps a tweed cushion and back rest with vinyl sides.
They said yes. You can buy your own materials....they will tell you how much they require....and you can ship the material to them and they will provide it to their manufacturer.
The seats are made overseas so it adds a couple on months to production and shipping time.
As for the back seat, it is virtually identical in size and shape to the late type 3 cars. I have always thought that it could probably use a type 3 rear seat kit from Sew fine.
I asked sewfine about this about 10 years ago. They said you can send your seat frame and they can compare and measure for a fee. Around that time I went to a few junk yards and measured few late type 3....and I am about 85% sure that with a few hand tweaks the sew fine rear type 3 seat cover set can be installed....at least in the sedan versions.
Ray |
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whobba
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Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 871
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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Interesting, Ray. I appreciate your ingenuity! I always struggle with keeping things original and customizing, but I tend to lean towards whatever is less expensive - the budget demands it. Those procar seats always looked much more comfortable than any VW seat, though!
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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| whobba wrote: |
| Interesting, Ray. I appreciate your ingenuity! I always struggle with keeping things original and customizing, but I tend to lean towards whatever is less expensive - the budget demands it. Those procar seats always looked much more comfortable than any VW seat, though! |
Over the years I had to start looking at it from this point of view.
If your car was otherwise perfect mechanically, structurally etc......all original or NOS parts, original paint as good as factory.....all stock engine, trans, wheels, bumpers etc (we can do all of that)......and in the interior you had stock dash and instruments and good repro headliner and carpets (we can do all of that).....but your seats were say....very close to stock, just as comfortable....and maybe had the stock headrest so at a glance no one other than a few people on these forums could tell you that they were not stock.......
......then I personally deem that to be "good enough"....for seats....unless you are doing a full on restoration for resale value or "concors".
Especially......when all through the years I have been looking around at reupholstering the seats.....the front seats alone have always netted estimates like this.
Back in the mid 2000s I spoke to Sew-Fine at length. They said they had never made a set of 411/412 seat covers. They looked at some pictures and said...."complex". They stated that if I send one to them, for ~$450 to $550 (mind you this was 15 years ago)....they would take it apart and make a pattern. If I wanted them to do the assembly work it would probably be $650 to $750 per seat looking at how different it is from a beetle, bus or type 3.
And really....that's fair. It's a lot of labor.
So, I was looking at $250 all told for shipping +$450 for patterns + ~ $1300 for the two front seats + another $200 or so to tweak the type 3 back seat cover (with armrest) set and about $150 for the rear seat cover.
So a little under $2400 for a complete set of seat covers about 15 years ago.
I took one of my seats to a local guy in Dallas about the same time frame .....and got the same answer...."wow....complex".....and about $ 800 each for them to just do them....if I provide the materials. So about $900 each.
There are a ton of more important things I can do to my car for $2400.
Ray |
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CAVEHEAD
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Joined: April 07, 2022
Posts: 43
Location: GEORGIA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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You still having fun ?  I got a quote from a local auto upholstery shop at 400 a seat and 350 for the rear. I was talking to a 914 buddy of mine and he offered his industrial sawing machine for a DYI. He helped me a few years ago to restore my 914 seats which turned out great. I also saw those from the Rays previous link while doing some research on Amazon for 400 |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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I got very lucky with my front seats. My headrests were perfect and so were my seat backs. When I had the backs opened in the rear panel I went in and adjusted the springs for a better fit. The sides after years of use tend to bend the springs. When I was in there I was able to tweak the springs and also added some thick foam…only at the vertcal sides. Looked like new again!
I tried to save the seat bottoms but no, I had to recover both. While apart I repaired broken springs and links. I had a local car upholsterer find me almost identical material. The match is almost perfect. This guy does alot of museum cars locally and I only spent around $300.00! You have to look very close to see the difference.
Bill |
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whobba
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Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 871
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:36 am Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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Picking up the new upholstery tomorrow for the front seats and head rest. I'll post photos. It took just 2 weeks and cost $800 for both front seats and new headrest covers. Not too bad!
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whobba
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Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 871
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:07 am Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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Couple of photos of the West Coast Metric rear window seal with the plastic style trim. Installed it last week, BTW you can totally install the plastic trim after the window is installed, using the trim install tool that WCM sells.
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vw81jetta
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2003
Posts: 117
Location: Toledo , ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:33 am Post subject: Re: '74 412 On the Way |
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| whobba wrote: |
Couple of photos of the West Coast Metric rear window seal with the plastic style trim. Installed it last week, BTW you can totally install the plastic trim after the window is installed, using the trim install tool that WCM sells. |
hows the fit on the seal ?
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68 dunebuggy ,72 411, 75 Westfalia, 85 Cabriolet , 99 new beetle,
Greater Toledo Volkswagen Club Staff |
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whobba
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