Ultimate Ground Solution - Anyone modernize grounds?

[dhaavers]

Semantics...

Perhaps "update", "rebuild", refurbish" or "rejuvenate" would be more apropos...??? <shrug>

Discuss...

- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[jlrftype7]

Grounds on modern European vehicles seem to mostly have header connections these days that are a 'modern' version of the older Ground trees. Welded stud on the body, then plastic housing with internal metal flat pin terminals arranged in either a Circle , that the ground wires plug into, or a flat rectangular plastic housing with the ground wires plugging into that style housing.
The trouble you get into with these is that the main body stud is easy to inspect by removing the normal 6mm nut or 13mm nut if they used an 8mm stud instead of a 6mm version, taking the whole header off with its attached wires and inspecting it, but not all those plastic housings come apart easily or at all if you need to check a single ground circuit internally for an issue. The wires get shoved into them , but some styles are not made to be disassembled once put together.
And that leads to hidden corrosion being missed since the plastic housings or Headers aren't open to your inspecting 'eyes' when you're looking things over. Also, the plastic housings can get shoved partially onto the portion of the body stud's flat washer section that's only meant to make a metal to metal connection, and now you have a bit of the plastic wedged between the body and the ground terminal, causing a weak ground when the assembly line tightened up the mounting nut and didn't see that the Header wasn't centered on the body stud, but off to one side.

With the older VW ground tree, it's all out in the open except for what's behind the ground tree and the mounting screw itself. But that's easily overcome once you access the Ground Tree.

For Jaguar and Land Rover, SODO's comments about accessing the grounds is where it all goes wrong on modern vehicles from them.....
SODO, picture LOTS of ground connections UNDER the carpet, on the body floor. Totally out of sight and mind. Picture salt and deicer solutions leaking or dripping off your shoes in winter, and slowly making their way through the carpet to rest on the metal floor. Then the chemical reactions take place, eating the grounds, and in a couple of cases, putting a hole in the Aluminum body floor, taking the ground stud completely out.....

The Vanagon ground trees are at least away from all of that......
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto

[djkeev]

VW's Vanagon ground tree concept is a HUGE improvement over the old Beetles where everything was grounded via the mounting hardware.

The lights on the fenders depended upon the fender mounting bolts for their ground, the license plate light on the engine lid hinges...... etc.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[dobryan]

An easy way to help the ground tree connection is to use one of the male parts of the tree to add a ground wire to the body next to the tree itself. I did this to both as well as clean the connection of the tree to the body. It cannot hurt and makes me feel good looking at it.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[jlrftype7]

[sanchius]

[Ronzo_volvo_guy]

Forum;

It's fun to read about all the conjecture and suggestions...and some of you get what's important, but are still not quite there IMO...for instance...dielectric grease (gives encapsulation, OK, but still allows corrosion to continue at the contact surfaces under its application)...stainless steel hardware (OK but stainless is known for galling if installed [a mechanical issue, sure] without a thread lube, and its not a particularly good electrical conductor itself, and if installed onto body sheetmetal without any anti-corrosion provision, doesn't truly address the root issue, so IMO is unnecessary and if not done right, can bring with it it's own issues, so is not a long-term solution)...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the design of the star-ground!...it is mechanically fine...it gives a handy provision which allows connecting multiple terminals to chassis and satisfies the electrical requirements well (when new...here is the rub!)...problems come up with corrosion after a long time of service...point being that it does not need to be redesigned or "modernized"...it just needs some pointed attention and to get it working like when new again, and hopefully for even longer than the original design life, which it is now well beyond...

Please do yourself a favor which you will NEVER regret (yes, I said NEVER!): Clean and prep all the current carrying connections of your star grounds (or bolt through sheetmetal) to shiny metal, so that you are essentially starting with the same condition which the factory started out with when the vehicles were first built, then generously anoint all of those corrosion-free surfaces with ACZP, and reassemble, at which time the ACZP gets displaced around the connections encapsulating them (just like the dielectric grease WT recommends, except that ACZP adds the neutralizing zinc component which is the (chemically) slightly magic kung-fu part!).

Slo356; ...nice work and pix! I just hope you abraded away the paint around those studs, as those are an important current carrying area (in addition to the stud itself)... and if you prepped all the terminals by first abrading the contact surface to shiny metal (and also assuring the crimped area of the terminals was free of corrosion), then lather the stack of connectors up, not with just dielectric grease, but with ACZP, before tightening the nut down, you can pretty much forget about having to dink around with these connections again because of contact problems, for a VERY, VERY long time. My advice: Do this, then move on to something else, because done right like this, it will not again need your attention, and you can move on to something else...like degradation of fuel lines...or being hit on the head by an asteroid from the Kuiper Belt!!

Dhaavers; ...may I suggest for your list: "Upgrade" (applies to many other components and systems beyond the star-ground...!)...this is a term which I dislike hearing, because I define it as "re-engineering a perfectly adequate original design (which may just have degraded so is no longer delivering adequate performance), when simply understanding what has degraded and it what manner, and specifically addressing that to bring performance back to as-new". Of course, this ignores the minor fact that re-engineering might not really be necessary at all! Sometimes replacement by shiny new, sometimes by installing a "rebuild kit", is called for, but sometimes simply be abrading away decades of the demon-corrosion and reassembling with a slightly magic goop, which puts a big crimp in the style of the demon-corrosion, is enough...!

Cheers and Happy New Year guys!

Reference: https://www.sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm

Edit: I guess Sanchius and my post crossed paths in the ether... I have done resistance tests with my Fluke meter, and dielectric grease and also ACZP, are BOTH non-conductive...DG obviously and ACZP because simply as a blob, the zinc particles are suspended in non-conductive grease. That's why I have broken down the mechanisms in action into three separate situations, and considered them individually (see link).

[Sodo]

[Wildthings]

[Ronzo_volvo_guy]

Wildthings;

Ditto on the value of your years of experience...I actually think our experience- bases are quite similar...I too used to goop the Battery terminals with Vasoline ...encapsulation with just about anything beats having the terminals out there just waiting for chemical attack!...and guess what...I generally don't tighten the Batt clamps either...the posts are conical and a good push down while turning has never failed me either!

But having been turned on to Penetrox in the '80, I now use it on all electrical connections...from Batt terminals, to in-line connectors, to chassis connections, to 1157 bulb brass bases, to wirenuts in the bathroom junction boxes! I never stop learning, and that includes going from Vasoline years ago, to ACZP now.

I think we could have an adult beverage together...I'm buying!

Cheers

[Wildthings]

[bheins]

Anyone use Sanchem NO-OX-ID?
https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html
We use this on high current DC (2000amps) electrical contact areas in an anodizing plant.

Bernie

[Ronzo_volvo_guy]

Bernie;

I have started looking at the specs and properties of this product...it does look interesting and possibly promising, with a long history and list of uses, but the very first thing I want to know and what I can't get from their documentation is the general formulation (I/We want a zinc filled grease!), not to know if if conforms to Euro RoHS commie requirements (which I quite honestly don't give a sh*t about!). I reserve final judgement on this product until I inform myself about it A LOT more!

Some initial and immediate observations on scanning your link:

I see them calling it a "conductive lubricant"...I expect this is once again marketing department embellishment (aka: horsesh*t)...these products are only contact protectors, preservers, neutralizers (but that doesn't sound nearly as impressive as contact "improver" or "conductive...")...they are simply NOT CONDUCTIVE by themselves! (I invite anyone including the marketing dept of any of these products, to provide substantiation to show and prove me wrong!)...they are typically all non-conductive because filled with any or whatever particulate magic chemical cocktail, these particles are are in some sort of non-conductive matrix, and not and never in contact with each other, which my, and WT's, test of placing the Ohm meter probes in a glob of the stuff would immediately show! The only time when their function occurs and when their benefit is realized, is when they are applied to a contact, displaced around it (Encapsulation, my Condition C, Ref: https://www.sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm ), and in the case of the zinc dust filled products, the filler is in contact (under high pressure and between) the two contacts (my Condition B), giving chemical/galvanic neutralizing benefits.

I do see "semi-transparent, non-drying film", but I also see them applying it to a boat hull, which it seems to me a "semi-transparent, non-drying film" would surely get washed away from...I have to wonder about this!...again, further study is called for...!

I also see them cherry-picking on the test results of the "The United States Department of the Interior Bureau of Reclamation states in their Facilities instruction Journal Volume 3-3 Electrical Connections for Power Circuits in section 6.3.2 that, "Use of grease with embedded zinc particles will cause a poorer connection due to the lower conductivity of zinc""...without stating the specifics of how the tests were performed...I expect reading the report and test implementation details, I wouldn't be surprised if they misapplied or misused the zinc filled grease products in the test (for instance lathering them on top of a connection [where they would only encapsulate], or applying them on low contact pressure type contacts where the mechanical pressure was insufficient to displace the grease, effectively letting the grease-film decrease the contact area, resulting in a higher resistance, and poorer test results!). ...of course it is their sales publication, so I'm not surprised by the cherry-picking.

I have decades of nothing but positive experience in corrosive environments (automotive, exterior amateur radio etc), with the Penetrox A, and the equivalent Ox-gard product. I have found the (not-so-equivalent) Noalox product to be unsuitable because of its I-run-away-from-point-of-application formulation, and I am always interested in learning about any new products in this area, so thank you for the link...I will check it out...and until I get an engineering sample into my little hands and check it out first hand and can state that I like or dislike it (with substantiation!), I will keep using and recommending the Penetrox A and Ox-gard products to the vintage Volvo community, and also my vintage VW friends.

Cheers

Edit: BTW, you might detail how you use the Sanchem product in you anodizing plant...I expect you generously anoint and cover contacts before bolting them together (high contact pressure!), this displacing the product an again giving the encapsulation effect...Ican't speakt to what chemical benefits it might also be giving...

[Zeitgeist 13]

Oi vey...

[montanasurfer]

Ya gotta love it!

Helpful:

[PDXWesty]

Not sure if anyone had even mentioned this yet, but you can get new ground trees pretty inexpensively:

https://www.gowesty.com/product/electrical-electronic/23919/ground-tree-kit-

_________________
89 Westy 2.1 Auto

[valvecovergasket]

came in expecting various dissertations on dielectric grease

leaving satisfied.
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MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com

gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread

[0cean]

This is a related question, How do you test a ground source to make sure its good?
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Cluster Rebuild:
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[jimf909]

FWIW, here's a ground tree and wiring on a more modern (2012) VW...we'll see in 20 years if it needs to be scrubbed and polished.

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- Jim

[Sodo]