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Gilbertdudeabides
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2022
Posts: 3
Location: PA
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 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:25 pm Post subject: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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I started my 87 vanagon camper today and heard a horrible sound.
Only horrible because a month ago it happened for the first time after waking up in a rest area in northern New York.
The sound is a nicely sounding engine warming up followed by a bubbling slurping noise and then a oil buzzer (thanks gowesty)
When you get out of the van and walk out back....... all of your oil is dumped on the ground.
The garage told me it was a gasket that sets between the oil cooler and head.....
I am not sure thats the whole problem I have been running 10w 60 oil as advised by a guy a (gowesty) which up until winter has seemed to be a very quite running oil. Mpg has been around 16... so I thought I was good....
Any suggestions would be welcome
Grateful |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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besides the answer of why the heck would you drive a van in the salted roads of NY in winter..
yeah this is a well known though not often spoken about issue with VAG cars from the 80s well into the 2000's
sorry this happened to you. hope you saved the engine from damage.
was the seal replaced the 1st time it happened a month ago?
is this a 2nd seal failing or the same one a 2nd time?
if that oil cooler seal has never been replaced it should be at least once in it's life.. they get very hard and fail when frigid..
then add in THICK motor oil and a frigid shrunken/cracked seal et voila exxon valdez and if not heeded a ruined engine..
all for a $5 gasket..
MPG has little to do with oil viscosity and climate conditions..
though 10w60 should have been ok.. being that it's a static 10w that performs like a 60w.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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djkeev
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Gilbertdudeabides
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2022
Posts: 3
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:15 am Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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It was replaced with a temporary gasket which only means that it did not have two setting O-rings on the inside that hold it to the oil cooler. We drove it back from NY remember cold and Icy 500 miles home and since then with No problem. But as soon as the temperature got cold oil dump. 3 quarts 30 seconds. Oil dump. So thats what is making me think...... that the oil is so cold that its building more than the 15 lb of preasure that gasket is ment for.
WAS wondering if that makes since?
Any suggestions on oil......... for guys who need to drive in the snowy winters of NY.
got the new gasket. Just need oil? |
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dhaavers
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Joined: March 19, 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:23 am Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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If your shop planned for 15psi on the temporary gasket, it was doomed to fail.
Pressure on a cold start can exceed 60psi, probably more with thick oil at cold temps.
Hopefully you're making at least 10psi per 1000rpm at "full hot" operating temperature.
Please check and report back...
- Dave
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:25 am Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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| Gilbertdudeabides wrote: |
It was replaced with a temporary gasket which only means that it did not have two setting O-rings on the inside that hold it to the oil cooler. We drove it back from NY remember cold and Icy 500 miles home and since then with No problem. But as soon as the temperature got cold oil dump. 3 quarts 30 seconds. Oil dump. So thats what is making me think...... that the oil is so cold that its building more than the 15 lb of preasure that gasket is ment for.
WAS wondering if that makes since?
Any suggestions on oil......... for guys who need to drive in the snowy winters of NY.
got the new gasket. Just need oil? |
We are talking about a water boxer engine here correct?
Cold start up oil pressure can be 70-80 PSI on a cold morning,
The Oring will handle a LOT MORE THAN 15psi!
There are no gaskets.
The oil cooler has nothing to do with the heads.
The oil filter flange is an integral part of the engine case casting. (Un-numbered drawing at top of photo)
You next have the oil cooler Oring against the flange (29)
Next the oil cooler which sandwiches the Oring between the two. (30)
This is held together by a threaded pipe into the case on one end and a nut at the other end. (28 & 31)
#23 is your spin on oil filter.
Ignore item #27 for that is used only on the 1.9 version of the engine.
If your mechanic made some sort of a home made gasket, it is no wonder it failed in short order.
These oil cooler Orings are in stock at any VW dealer..... about $10 or so, They were used extensively through the years.
Dave
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:04 am Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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If Gowesty can't build an engine that will run on 0w30 oil during the winter months, I for one will not be buying one. The original 2.1L factory engine was quite happy running an xxW30 year around for 150K+ miles until the rods stretched from millions of stress cycles. IMHO all a xxW50 or worse an xxW60 oil does on a well built engine is keep more oil passing through the relief so there is LESS oil flow to the bearing and other parts of the engine to provide cooling. Assuming your engine is rebuilt with decently tight oil clearances, your local Walmart is likely now carrying both 0W30 and 0W40 Mobile 1 synthetic that you could run either just in the winter or year around if you please.
For you present problem, it seems reasonable to me to eliminate the oil cooler all together is it has multiple points of failure. The o-ring being one and the little hoses getting brittle from the heat over time and bursting is another. I just got a short nipple as per a 1.9L engine and eliminated the cooler altogether as I have experienced too many cooler related near engine deaths to want to run it any more. I had zero bottom end problems running a 1.9L engine which didn't have the cooler to begin with nor have I had problems with the used 2.1L engine (sans cooler) that I replaced it with 6ish years ago. |
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djkeev
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dobryan
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:05 am Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Dave, I am not even sure modern synthetic 0W-xx grade oils were readily available in 1990. It is like looking at the manufacturers recommended oil for a 1932 model year car. |
In a 1932 car you depended on gasoline building up in the poorly ventilated crankcase to thin the oil out during the winter months, with the SAE saying that 6% gasoline in the oil was normal, but the gasoline along with the water build up and the consequent acid formation and corrosion gave a very short engine life. I 100% agree with you that VW couldn't recommend an oil that was not made or at least be readily available, while also not recommending the use of synthetics which were at the time quite expensive relative to today. From what I can remember 5W30 oil wasn't all that readily available until Vanagons were no longer being sold new in this country.
I was pretty leery when I moved to running a 5W40 oil 20+ years ago, while today it is pretty much my gold standard for year around use in every ancient rig I own, though I have transitioned to 0W40 for my rigs that see daily winter use even though they don't see harsh conditions at all.
VW has never to the best of my knowledge upgraded their oil recommendations for their old aircooled engines, but Porsche has and their present recommendation is to run a 0W40 synthetic oil.
For what its worth, I took crap 40 years ago when I was running a large maintenance operation for switching from straight weight oil to a 15w40 all fleet oil. I had people swearing at me that I was going to destroy every engine in the place.
If you look at the chart Dave posted, it doesn't show conclusively that 20w50 is any better for summer use than 30wt, yet from some reason few people chose to run 30wt while readily hopping on the 20w50 band wagon. Today's 30wt which are much better refined than oil of 30-40 years ago would actually be a very good choice since they don't depend on viscosity modifiers and thus can handle more heat for longer periods of time than multigrade dino oils can. I consider today's straight weight oils to be a poor man's synthetic as they offer many of the same benefits.
Last edited by Wildthings on Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2332
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:21 am Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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My 89 had the same problem, however, and ironically, the O-ring blew as I was driving it into my garage for servicing....... on a warm day with 10w-30 oil.
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Last edited by AndyBees on Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:31 am Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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| Gilbertdudeabides wrote: |
| It was replaced with a temporary gasket which only means that it did not have two setting O-rings on the inside that hold it to the oil cooler... |
Get the correct o-ring and it will last a decade+. Those little ears make a difference. |
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Gilbertdudeabides
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Joined: January 22, 2022
Posts: 3
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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Thank you all for your feedback on this issue. I am truely grateful!
I did get the OEM gasket for the oil cooler. Part # 29 on list shown.
Oil viscosity conversions are still as controversial as they have always been. I was really excited for how well the van ran after switching to the 10w 60. It makes since to just remove that as a variable and see what happens.
This vanagon 87 is intended to be used adventuring around so I always expected that things would happen...... when it happens so close in time line I immediately think I am missing something.
Thank you all I cant tell you how helpful this was!
I will keep you all posted. |
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JEL91Westy
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Joined: December 04, 2020
Posts: 211
Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: 10 degree Fahrenheit cold start oil dump |
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So should one be concerned if the o- ring in question only cost $2 from BD, or are we getting a great deal?
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