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55rag Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2004 Posts: 256
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:57 pm Post subject: Jay's 2275 build |
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Hello All,
I started a post a long while back but I was really asking for opinions on my seized motor and what direction to go. I wanted to start a new post to document the engine I'm building.
I have most of the parts so far but the actual build is going slow due to work schedule. I'm hoping to have this put together in the next couple months.
This motor will eventually be going in my 67 Ghia convertible for weekend fun. Let me know what you think.
I'm going for 9.5:1 compression.
New AS41 case CIP1
Clearance for 82mm stroke/94mm cylinder
Bushed lifter bores Brothers Machine
Hoover mods drilled oil gallery, cam brg oil grooves enlarged Brothers Machine and me
Oil galleries drilled/tapped Brothers Machine
Oil pump outlet drilled/tapped for full flow - Me
Deburred - Me
Head studs Chromoly CB Performance
Tig brazed oil pickup extension - Kielbasa
Dynamic balancing Brothers Machine
82mm crank Empi Appletree Automotive
5.4 rods VW journal/ARP bolts Empi Appletree Automotive
Small end clearance for my wrist pins Brothers Machine
94mm Pistons/cylinder Mahle Old stash
Gene Berg wrist pin keepers
Clearance cylinder fins for case half bolts - Me
.090 shims (actual measurement of .087)
Heads Tims stage II
42x37mm valves
Intakes port matched
Welded and drilled for 12mm spark plugs
Added missing air deflectors Awesome Powdercoat
Cam Web Cam 86b EP12 Dan Ruddock
Cam gear straight cut - Competition Engineering
Lifters CB Performance 1537 28mm Ultralight
Hoover mod grooves - Me
Pushrods Probably will use Dan Ruddock aluminium
Pushrod tubes JayCee
Rockers 1.4 ratio/ .060 shaved blocks Dan Ruddock
Hoover mod oil grooves Me still need to do
Bearings
Mains Silverline Had to mix two sets Pierside Parts
Oil groove clearance - Me
Rods Metal Leve old stash I had
Cam Mahle blue box Pierside Parts
Sanded down for .004 end play - Me
Notched to uncover case oil return groove - Me
Oil pump Gene Berg 26mm
Oil pump cover Gene Berg full flow
Flywheel 12 lb DPR
Gene Berg pressure plate shim kit
CB Performance HD gland nut
Pressure Plate Kennedy 1700 lb (stage 1) - DPR
Clutch - Daiken ?????
Crank pulley 5lb CB Performance
Oil sump 1.5 liter Gene Berg
Sump plate magnetic Jaycee
Oil pickup extension brazed - Kielbasa
Oil cooler new doghouse CIP1
Distributor Magnaspark II CB Performance
Carbs Weber 45 IDF CB Performance
Jet Doctor
Matched intake ports- Tims
Surface mounting tabs and clearance for cylinder tin - Me
Exhaust 1 5/8 stainless steel sidewinder - AA
Engine tin
Cylinder tin Awesome Powdercoating
Fan shroud Empi
Venturi ring Awesome Powdercoating
Throttle cable roller - Benco
Hoover bit Awesome Powdercoating
Sealants Used:
Loctite 545 thread sealant = oil gallery plugs,
Loctite 262 red = case studs,
Loctite 243 blue =
Curil T2 = case halves
Permatex Ultra Gray = cylinder base, type3 block-off, case to external sump, oil pump to case
Lube Used:
StaLube Engine Assembly Lube = crank, rod and cam bearings, distributor drive, oil pump gears, lifter bores
Lucas Assembly Lube = same as above
Cam Shield = Lifters, cam lobes
Brad Penn 20x50 = general lube This is my air cooled oil of choice.
Measurements:
Heads
Combustion chamber 57cc
Deck Height
#1 .043 CR 9.8
#2 .046 CR 9.7
#3 .041 CR 9.9
#4 .041 CR 9.9
Mistakes so far:
Didnt measure crank to cam clearance before getting parts balanced. Clearance measures .035 and consensus was that was safe enough to move forward.
Here's the workbench.
Modified HF engine stand:
Trying to find runout on the crank.
Opening up the cam oil groove for Hoover mod.
Going full flow even thought the oil pump outlet is plugged I read that it's safe to plug the case side as well.
Chamfered the oil drain at the rear seal a little.
I did my best at smoothing and deburring the case with my dremel.
Ground oil grooves in the lifters.
I had to clearance the cam bearing a tiny bit to uncover the oil drain passage.
Cooking some crank gears.
I measured all the journals with calipers but wanted to check with the plastigage as well.
Here's the inside of the AA sidewinder collector.
Hopefully more to come soon. Thanks _________________ 55 ragtop bug
67 Ghia vert
85 911
18 GTI
Some beat up British bikes
Last edited by 55rag on Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3685 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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1700 Kennedy is Stage 1, Daikin disc is good. I'm running a 26mm pump without problem on my 2007 with all the Hoover mods. Unless you boost it, stock German 8mm studs are more than adequate _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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Jason37 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2004 Posts: 1028
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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20w50 may be too heavy for a fresh build depending on clearances. |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3292 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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Make sure you deburr those cuts on the lifters. I like to a soft deburring wheel on a bench grinder.
Also, dont get all excited once its to a short block and start sealing up the case. Make 100% sure you do a COMPLETE mock-up before doing anything with sealer or final assembly. Complete meaning all the way out to the tin. All rocker geometry done, head studs cut to length, deck heights set etc. BEFORE sealing up the short block. Once its fully mocked up, then tear it all apart, super clean everything in groups, and then start the final assembly.
This will make the final assembly to much smoother, and it wont wipe all your cam lube off the lifters while you do the rocker geometry.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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I have a KEP Stage 1 and ACE Copperhead clutch setup on my similar 2180. No problem launching with a ZF LSD so both wheels grip and no slip on the clutch.
With all the cash you have invested, you might want to look at the COOLED fan shroud. I installed their "Fresh Air" model on a 2017 and its and exact copy of the factory shroud. They also make one that's a copy of the Type 181 non-fresh air.
For oil, I agree that after break in you should run a 10W30.
Last thing, no need to heat the crank gears in an oven. I'v been using a heat gun with the parts laying on a ceramic bathroom tile. I heat them to 225*F and they literally drop on.
Looks to b a nice build, post pictures are you go along. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7544 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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Ya, nice build for sure.
One thing i have noticed with my cars has to do with cold-start and warm-up.
While i know you'll hear all kinds of different opinions on the subject,
in my experience my motors are far less happy without a thermostat.
Especially with big 94s, the ring seal and piston/cylinder life is reduced big time without a good warm-up cycle.
Here in cold damp Santa Cruz, and my tendency to go places in the morning and on short trips, warm-up takes a long time, and the motor stays unhappy and cold for far longer without the t-stat and flaps.
Even with a nice lean mixture, ring seal takes a beating when I'm forcing the motor to be driven along, as the cylinders are being blasted with cold air from the outside before they can come up to temp and correct clearances.
Doing a before/after showed a huge difference for me.
If you can, also consider putting in flaps, even if your exhaust won't allow a t-stat.
With the China fan shroud, no flaps allow air that should be forced through the head to take an easier way around through the cylinders.
Since you're taking the time to suss out so many other little airflow details it makes sense to also pay attention to the big ones.
Nice work. _________________ Bus Motor Build
Whats That Noise?!? |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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Clatter wrote: |
Ya, nice build for sure.
One thing i have noticed with my cars has to do with cold-start and warm-up.
While i know you'll hear all kinds of different opinions on the subject,
in my experience my motors are far less happy without a thermostat.
Especially with big 94s, the ring seal and piston/cylinder life is reduced big time without a good warm-up cycle.
Here in cold damp Santa Cruz, and my tendency to go places in the morning and on short trips, warm-up takes a long time, and the motor stays unhappy and cold for far longer without the t-stat and flaps.
Even with a nice lean mixture, ring seal takes a beating when I'm forcing the motor to be driven along, as the cylinders are being blasted with cold air from the outside before they can come up to temp and correct clearances.
Doing a before/after showed a huge difference for me.
If you can, also consider putting in flaps, even if your exhaust won't allow a t-stat.
With the China fan shroud, no flaps allow air that should be forced through the head to take an easier way around through the cylinders.
Since you're taking the time to suss out so many other little airflow details it makes sense to also pay attention to the big ones.
Nice work. |
I have flaps and thermostat
The COOLED shroud has the holes for mounting flaps. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Olli from NJ Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 302 Location: Milton,DE
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55rag Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2004 Posts: 256
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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Thanks for all the great replies.
You are all right, this is an expensive engine. I didn't plan on it going that way but once you get started it get's hard to compromise. Plus the fact that prices for all parts have gone way up because of shortages. Anyway I think I've done a ton of reading and it amazes me how much I don't know and some of your replies have proven it.
So I learned tonight:
My pressure plate is stage 1 not 2 (I knew that but I was testing).
Seems like the Daiken plate should hold fine. I also don't plan on drag starts.
I don't need chromoly head studs. Is there an issue if I do use chromoly head studs vs stock? I already have the chromoly but I'd have to find stock?
My oil choice is too thick. I've used 20w50 in all my air cooled engines forever. I'm okay being wrong but will 10w30 work for me in SoCal? I live in Orange County so it doesn't get scorching hot or freezing cold. Also, what is the suggestion for break in oil?
I do plan on assembling the engine before final sealing. I didn't think of fitting tin and all that but it's a good idea. I will really need help with the rocker geometry once I get to that stage. I've read a ton about it but it just doesn't click with me. I'm a little slow.
I did run a 2000 grit roll over those lifter cuts. Does it look like they need more work?
Glenn and Clatter, I don't think my exhaust will allow for the thermostat. Another thing I've never ran are the flaps/thermo. I've never had an engine that came with them. I get that they are for a quicker warm-up but I guess I just don't drive my car enough to notice the increased longevity. I didn't even know there was someone remaking the fan housing ie. COOLED. I checked those out and they look fantastic but I'm vain and I like the small fan housing I have. This engine also has to fit my oval engine compartment for the break in so that big fan shroud get problematic.
Can I use those static flap inserts that Olli pointed out? Never seen those either but could that be a compromise that would work?
By the way, I am going for 9.5:1 compression.
Thanks for all the info. _________________ 55 ragtop bug
67 Ghia vert
85 911
18 GTI
Some beat up British bikes |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3988 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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10W30 will do fine for you. Pick your favorite high ZDDP brand.
As for mocking up and fitting tin, it's absolutely a good idea. I had my block together and apart half a dozen times before final assembly and final torque. Back before the final assembly I mocked up all the tin, and found I needed to bend and trim a lot, even on stock shroud and tin. The manifolds in particular would have been a total pain in the ass to fit into the head tin in the car, I'm super glad I did it while on the stand. Had to bend and trim to get them to go in, and to get all the various bits to line up. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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KEGZ Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021 Posts: 288 Location: Whales Vagina
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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I've only EVER used VR1 20w50 in my flat-four motors. First suggested by Kris Lauffer. But also by other builders as well. Shawn Geers, Dan Lawson, Dave Forbis, Bill Shearer. |
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richierich Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2004 Posts: 889
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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55rag wrote: |
Thanks for all the great replies.
You are all right, this is an expensive engine. I didn't plan on it going that way but once you get started it get's hard to compromise. Plus the fact that prices for all parts have gone way up because of shortages. Anyway I think I've done a ton of reading and it amazes me how much I don't know and some of your replies have proven it.
So I learned tonight:
My pressure plate is stage 1 not 2 (I knew that but I was testing).
Seems like the Daiken plate should hold fine. I also don't plan on drag starts.
I don't need chromoly head studs. Is there an issue if I do use chromoly head studs vs stock? I already have the chromoly but I'd have to find stock?
My oil choice is too thick. I've used 20w50 in all my air cooled engines forever. I'm okay being wrong but will 10w30 work for me in SoCal? I live in Orange County so it doesn't get scorching hot or freezing cold. Also, what is the suggestion for break in oil?
I do plan on assembling the engine before final sealing. I didn't think of fitting tin and all that but it's a good idea. I will really need help with the rocker geometry once I get to that stage. I've read a ton about it but it just doesn't click with me. I'm a little slow.
I did run a 2000 grit roll over those lifter cuts. Does it look like they need more work?
Glenn and Clatter, I don't think my exhaust will allow for the thermostat. Another thing I've never ran are the flaps/thermo. I've never had an engine that came with them. I get that they are for a quicker warm-up but I guess I just don't drive my car enough to notice the increased longevity. I didn't even know there was someone remaking the fan housing ie. COOLED. I checked those out and they look fantastic but I'm vain and I like the small fan housing I have. This engine also has to fit my oval engine compartment for the break in so that big fan shroud get problematic.
Can I use those static flap inserts that Olli pointed out? Never seen those either but could that be a compromise that would work?
By the way, I am going for 9.5:1 compression.
Thanks for all the info. |
I use 10w30 in my 2276 here in the UK. Vehicle is a split panel van
I also dont run a thermostat and my motor doesnt seem to struggle warming up at all. I'm at 9.2 CR.
I also run a Stage 1 and a Daikin disc and the Stage 1 is just fine. _________________ Blah..... |
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55rag Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2004 Posts: 256
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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I haven't got much further since my last post but I am going to order those Andrig static flaps for my 36hp fan shroud. I'll shoot pics when I install them.
In the meantime, I'm taking a much needed break from work and going camping. Ah, a few days in the desert to howl at the coyotes will be great.. _________________ 55 ragtop bug
67 Ghia vert
85 911
18 GTI
Some beat up British bikes |
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JaredJ Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2006 Posts: 49
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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I know this sparks a debate but why not the 30mm oil pump? If VW switched to 30mm when they added an external filter then why is it too much? Also, if you look at the builders choice kits that CB sells or even the Scat longblocks they both use 30mm pumps. The EMPI external filter kits also use the 30mm pump. I'm confused as to why the suggestion to use 26mm instead.
I'm building a 1904 for my '67 Baja to replace the 1500 in it now and I was told to use a 30mm pump with full flow and a filter. I'm lost. |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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JaredJ wrote: |
I know this sparks a debate but why not the 30mm oil pump? If VW switched to 30mm when they added an external filter then why is it too much? Also, if you look at the builders choice kits that CB sells or even the Scat longblocks they both use 30mm pumps. The EMPI external filter kits also use the 30mm pump. I'm confused as to why the suggestion to use 26mm instead.
I'm building a 1904 for my '67 Baja to replace the 1500 in it now and I was told to use a 30mm pump with full flow and a filter. I'm lost. |
You and i both. Climate should be considered. When someone lives in a place that is never cold and ran in hot summers, larger pump and adjust oil weight to pressure. I would always rather have a larger pump and adust to lighter weight and have more volume then have the smaller pump and only option is thicker oil when its hot. |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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In So Cal I'd reccomend 10w40 in the summer and 10w30 in the winter. 20w50 is OK for an older tired engine but a new build their is no reason. Warm weather has a significant (more than one might expect) effect on oil temp and that affects oil pressure. Thick oil won't provide proper "splash" oiling required in a type 1 engine.
Once you get the engine started for the first time and measure your oil pressure you can go from there.
Do yourself a favor a get a Gene Berg gland nut... and honeslty I'd go with a CB Maxi pump instead of the Gene Burg pump. But if you've already gone ahead with prepping the pump I don't think you can go wrong with either.
Sounds like a fun build _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Michael Ambrozik Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2020 Posts: 631 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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I would look at different push rods. The spring pressures in the Tim's stage 2 heads and Web86B cam may cause the alum push rods to bend. Just my 2 cents. |
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Shane Tuttle Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2011 Posts: 173 Location: Arlee, Montana
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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Quote: |
I would look at different push rods. The spring pressures in the Tim's stage 2 heads and Web86B cam may cause the alum push rods to bend. Just my 2 cents. |
With respect, I wholeheartedly disagree. Typical aluminum pushrods? I believe you have a solid point. Dan Ruddock's aluminum pushrods? No way. His design is a whole 'nuther ballgame.
There's an oil thread that has more pages than the Bible, itself. A builder I trust provided this info to me: If you have the OLD formula Brad Penn oil (black bottle?) I'm at the understanding the formula is outstanding and ZDDP levels are great. I believe the Brad Penn name has exchanged hands and today's formula may not be the same. For our valvetrain design, sweet crude oil from Pennsylvania is what is beneficial. You want to throw a curve ball in the argument? I've been informed Joe Gibbs Racing has an oil that's right up our alley. I'm going to consider using it in my 2110cc.
https://drivenracingoil.com/ |
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Shane Tuttle Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2011 Posts: 173 Location: Arlee, Montana
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Jay's 2275 build |
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Oh, I forgot. I don't have direct experience with Andrig's fixed flaps. But I corresponded with him the last couple of days and he was very responsive to my emails. |
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