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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:21 pm Post subject: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Oh, now i done did it..
Need to stay off Craigslist!
Still, who could resist this??
When you see an add like this, you know someone is getting mobbed with crankheads.
Was probably the only one to message him saying "you're asking too little!"
Wondering the whole time what the story is..
Sandrail? Drag car?
Either of those scenarios aren't usually good for motors.
This one was the classic "rich guy with a speedster kit car"!
Score!
Actually, a really nice guy got it free from one of his good friends who drove it a lot until it sucked a valve
(When he wasn't driving his Fisker or Hummer or Bentley).
Had a great time making a new friend and geeking out. Thanks Karl.
He had the heads re-done before throwing in the towel, especially since he didn't have a car for it either.
Pretty small damage considering a head came off a valve.
guy was driving it around for a while with it "down on power", too..!
Got it home last night and did a few check-outs today.
Trying to figure out what i got here.
Will be a while before i get the time to rip it down and check it out properly.
Going to need to do some homework and figure out what to do with the thing.
Really would like to run it in my Oval on the street!
Something like this could take me down rabbit-holes I'd like to avoid.
Hopefully we have a combo here that will work pretty much as-is.
Remember, I'm not poor, just broke!
Think this here's a recipe for a broken valve spring?
Probably more due to no cooling fins (or intercooler).
.401 at the cam, .561 at the valve,
295 advertised, 263 @ 050.
Not super crazy.. A "Ratio rocker version of the W125" according to John C.
AS-21 Brazil mag case,
82 counterweight (supposedly wedgemated)
5.4 H-beams
94 Cimas
End-play looks good for what this is, eh?
Check these out, looks like Autocraft roller 1.4s but on Bugpack shafts?
Maybe Latest Rage copies?
Here's where i need some help,
Never had any Dells before.
Are Dell 40s enough for a 2275 with a big turbo on it?
How do you tell if they are the tri-jet type?
Did they even make a 40 tri-jet?
Does it matter if the letters match like with Webers?
I think we might have two different carbs here..
There's sure to be some learning with blow-thru mods no doubt.
These stacks being small is interesting.
Anybody know about this?
Here's where Donnie really gets out of his element..
Turbonetics? Huh? The ID tag has worn/faded blank.
Is this a good turbo for this motor?
The shaft spins easily and smoothly, with just a tiny bit of play.
Feels like a thou or two maybe.
OK to just take it apart and clean it up?
Pretty cool old header.
Got a hole in it though.
Looks like they added a bigger flange?
And there's this thing.. These any good?
Anyhow, after checking it out a bit and mocking it up to see what fits,
Looks like it would fit a full-bodied Bug with a different dump pipe?
What you guys think?
I'm tempted to just clean everything up and throw it together!
That, or just put the Weber 44s and 1 5/8" merge from my 1914 on and run it N/A..
But then again... The heads don't have any cooling fins, really.
Anybody got a copy of that Turbomania book they'll sell me or let me borrow?
Everybody wants $150 for that book nowadays!
That's probably what I'd need to study in order to run this thing, eh!
Was going to dress it down with some nice tins, as most of it is missing,
But,
Then,
With no head fins anyways...
Why bother?
Think what i need to buy now is a pickup truck and car hauler?
Did i just buy a pig in a poke?
What would you do? _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!?
Last edited by Clatter on Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:36 am; edited 3 times in total |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7374
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Your wife is going to kill you!
Frikken Bergmann.
Tri jet dells are only 48s. |
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3228 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Tighten the deck to .045", spruce up the heads a bit, get it to 10.0:1, china 44IDF's, 1 5/8" header, and put it in the car and hang on.
I have torn two of those BB engines down. Both were big CC, low compression slugs. Decent parts, terrible build practices.
I think you did fine. I still have a BB full circle 84mm crank with holes in the counterweights on the shelf. Its still pretty nice.
Sell the turbo "kit" in the classified to someone else, and recoup a good chunk of your $$.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
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KEGZ Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021 Posts: 288 Location: Whales Vagina
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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I sold that turbo mania book on samba for $25. Mint! |
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Emeraldlion Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2005 Posts: 743 Location: Texarkana, TX
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Dells have different letters for a set. Those are the letters for Italian word for left and right. Jake Raby seemed to think 40s we're good enough for big engines. He knows his stuff. Mcdragracer here on sba rebuilds them. Not cheap but you get next best thing to a brand new carb back. _________________ 1967 Sunroof Beetle: tourist pass car
1961 SWR Kombi |
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j-dub Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003 Posts: 865 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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On the Dells,
S = Sinstra = Left
D = Destra = Right
The tri-jets are stamped with a G, so GS and GD.
It is very possible Dellorto made other sizes of tri-jets, what we got here were only 48s. I do have a 45 dell with all of the provisions for the tri-jet in the casting but the holes were not drilled all the way through.
+ 1 more vote for Rick McDragracer if you need parts or them rebuilt.
The small stacks on top are called Mod Rings, the idea is that on a turbo they provide a mild restriction that slightly pressurized the fuel bowl and allows extra fuel to flow to make up for the boost! They came in all sizes so you could fine tune your engine. _________________ 1957 Oval rag
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1365
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Certainly $1250 worth of parts there.
I'd like to see pics of the "finless" heads.
That's not a hole in the exhaust. That's a "poor man's wastegate". It won't make max boost with a hole in the pipe.
Brian_e wrote: |
Tighten the deck to .045", spruce up the heads a bit, get it to 10.0:1, china 44IDF's, 1 5/8" header, and put it in the car and hang on.
I have torn two of those BB engines down. Both were big CC, low compression slugs. Decent parts, terrible build practices.
I think you did fine. I still have a BB full circle 84mm crank with holes in the counterweights on the shelf. Its still pretty nice.
Sell the turbo "kit" in the classified to someone else, and recoup a good chunk of your $$.
Brian |
All good ideas. Except... the 40 Dells are already paid for. Got 'em, own 'em... run em! Especially with the turbo delete. With the turbo it's just a big ol' parts breaker.
I would be a little cautious with 10:1 compression. Run that a little lean, it will crack heads like nobody's business. |
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KROC Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2006 Posts: 359 Location: Vancouver B.C.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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I bet the header pipes were wrapped at some point. It rots them out really quick. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Thanks for the info gentlemen.
Sure would like to run that turbo if possible..!
Got a few receipts and a letter from the first owner who built the car.
The OG receipt from Bergmann was there but vague.
Two different shops went clear through it to the tune of $4000 each trip around 2007 or so.
Unfortunately that's all we know - no details.
That's why it has the FK-45 instead of the Bergmann hydraulic cam thankfully.
Also a 1700# P/P instead of 2300..
Betting it got a bigger turbo along the line as well,
Because of surgery on the flange, as well as really close clearances with the wastegate and to the header.
Anyone out there can tell me anything about the turbo by the numbers cast into the side?
A good size?
Not some kind of old useless boat anchor..?
It's like anything else where you can just take it apart and clean it up, right?
Here's a great old read about blow-thru:
https://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=108620 _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9602 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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"Dash Porsche race rods..." ? I've never heard of those. Could the seller have meant to use a "dash" ( - ) as a list item, instead of typing in the word?
Those heads, with the small lower part which you can see below the cylinder head cooling tins in your side-by-side photo, seem to have the thick cooling fins like Street Eliminators from the 1980's. 6 fins instead of the stock-style castings with 8 fins. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Ya, that "Porsche Race Rods" blurb was lifted directly from the original Bergmann receipt.
They are China H-beams with VW journals in a 5.5 length here now.
Motor has been apart and gone thru a couple of times,
Maybe it had a Porsche journal crank in it once?
Once apart I'm thinking you'll be able to tell a Bergmann crank.
Those are indeed old SE heads.
They have big gussets underneath,
And super thick everything.
Only marks are the two letters CB stamped into the rocker box area.
They're noticeably heavy/dense when you pick them up,
Seemingly twice as heavy as normal heads.
If only they had some more fins... _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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dunk Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2006 Posts: 158
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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re: the small stacks on the carbs..
turbo modulator rings - cb performance still sell them i believe..
seeing as its been "tinkered" with multiple times..
maybe a complete carb/turbo setup came from them?
edit - must read complete post first!.. j-dub already pointed this out!
Last edited by dunk on Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:17 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Carb sizing on forced induction does not follow the same rules as N/A carb sizing. I would hazard a guess that those 40mm carbs will work just fine.
As for the turbo being sized correctly... no idea. Take the housings off, clean it all up and see if there are any more numbers to identify it. Sounds like it is in good shape and I think you are correct that it has been up sized. That may be good and may be bad... You will soon know once it is running by what rpm the boost starts at and how much lag there is.
Don't listen to all the boost haters out there, do a good go through on the engine, put all the proper tins and flaps back on the engine and try it out. The only thing I would caution you about is back off your wastegate so you only have a few pounds boost and bring it back on gradually WITH THE APROPRIATE TIMING CHANGES and head/oil temp monitoring. If you don't get greedy on boost that engine could give you many years of pleasure.
Just looking at what you have, I see there is no intercooler and if there is no water/methanol injection then my guess is that it was set up originally as a mildly boosted engine. Then someone went boost greedy and tried to up the ante by using a bigger turbo but didn't know there is a lot more to change than just the turbo when you go into the double digits on boost.
Go for it Clatter, it's a whole new world you NEED to explore! Once you have had that kick in the pants that even 4 psi gives you... be warned that you will never go back to women! 8 psi is even better, after that it gets more complicated. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Heck yea, I would Turbo that Oval, You sure got a DEAL on that wastgate is a bit out dated if it works at all? mine did not,the diaphragm was shot,,(Fleabay $50 knockoff worx),,
Looks like the T-4 Turbonetic I just sold ,, your header was modifed from a t3 to a t4 , they sell adapters now days ,patch that hole,,,
Drop the CR to 8:1 you'll be good to about 12 lbs depending on fuel octane, later u will want up the boost,find a water /meth injection kit,I run windshield solvent for up to 17 lbs without ping I haven't bought Race gas in 2 years just 93 premium,I've never ran that cam but 253@ 0.50 is good if ya ever want to try a diff cam slap in a fk 8 PM me about my Turbomania Book,Cheers,Mike _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1365
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Clatter wrote: |
Those are indeed old SE heads.
They have big gussets underneath,
And super thick everything.
Only marks are the two letters CB stamped into the rocker box area.
They're noticeably heavy/dense when you pick them up,
Seemingly twice as heavy as normal heads.
If only they had some more fins... |
I'm thinkin' of all the not just finless but fanless VW "race" applications.
Fanless VW midgets.
Fanless drag cars.
Tinless Formula Vs.
Come to think of it I've seen plenty of a VW aircraft conversions. Delete all the tin. Delete the fan. In an aircraft you jave a big ol' fan (the properllor) in front of the engine.
I don't think I'd want to run fanless even 1/4 mile at a time. Gives new meaning to "gettin' burned down".
BTW I had a 2338 Bergmann with all the bells and whistles. Tin / cooling system was the finest chrome Taiwan had to offer at the time.
oprn wrote: |
Don't listen to all the boost haters out there, do a good go through on the engine, put all the proper tins and flaps back on the engine and try it out. The only thing I would caution you about is back off your wastegate so you only have a few pounds boost and bring it back on gradually WITH THE APROPRIATE TIMING CHANGES and head/oil temp monitoring. If you don't get greedy on boost that engine could give you many years of pleasure. |
I'm not a hater, just a big fan of simplicity. KISS was an VW core concept back when Volkswagen was just an idea swirling around in Doctor Porsche's fertile imagination.
Seems to me Saab had boost all figured out. Saab's engine controls were a national treasure.
Counterpoint:
Worst turbo ever:
My vote goes to the Nissan Juke aka Nissan Joke. Flew into Chicago and ended up with a Joke for a rental. It's bulbuously large outside yet oddly cramped inside. Its curvaceous bodywork rivals the more angluar Pontiac Aztek as The World's Ugliest Car. Worst thing about the Joke: Life threatenting turbo lag. I'm sittin' at a light in Chicago. I got this clocked, got a plan, it's all figured out. Light turns green, I'm gonna mash the gas and turn left. I won't be here when they get here. Light turns green, cue heartfelt cussin'... had plenty of time for color commentary on the situation. I could have read a book while I was waiting for the turbo to spool up.
The turbo Joke makes no power until the turbo gets off its lazy ass and becomes part of the solution.
I suppose I could have power braked it and built boost if I knew it had turbo lag like waitin' for the cable guy to show up.
I had a turbocharged Kawasaki that was pretty dialed- in. Worst aspect of that bike was anticipating the inevitable wheelies. The proper technique is to wheelie the corner exit not the middle of the corner... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Clatter if I may be so bold as to speak for him is intimately familiar with simple, let him try a bit of kick butt for a switch! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1365
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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I was out in the barn with my two ovals yesterday.
Gotta admit mine aren't that pretty. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Yeah, pretty much the farther back you go in time the gnarlier and tougher everything gets, right?
Rub some dirt on it!
Go back even to the early 90s here, they didn't run water injection or intercoolers or even digital FI or crank trigger ignition.
When the head fell off a valve they pulled it apart and put in another!
Does this setup i got even have a BOV?
Supposedly you can get one from a Volvo at the junkyard.
Seems like that would help these Dells live a happier life.
See how little i know?
Something that tripped me out is seeing the 009.
Thought for sure it would be locked out,
But no,
Grab the rotor and twist and it feels pretty much like any 009.
Might have some advance limited by bending tabs or something but doesn't feel like it.
Have a Crane Hi6N/LX92 and MSD copy distributor a la JPaul.
Since it's more adjustable and sparkier it might be the ticket?
Here's what keeps coming back to me.
This stuff was all together and running around for years.
The combo has to be at least ballpark.
Might need some tuning work and this or that changed,
But the main thing is that if i put it back together like it is, i shouldn't have to buy any parts.
Provided what's here is any good of course..
Like with these carbs,
They have the modulator rings (don't i sound smart now ).
probably also has the CB turbo e-tubes and jets in the ballpark.
If i can go through them and clean them up and double-check jets and all,
I might just be into them for a couple kits and maybe a few jets.
If they get converted back to N/A use it would be an even bigger project, dig?
Since i don't know Dells they make a bad first try.
Here the exhaust has a hole in it likely because a rock got kicked up (it's right behind the tire) Since it's not a rust hole there's some meat for welding.
Might even weld some more little reinforcement/guard plates in while I'm at it.
Also have an O2 bung for my wideband to zap into place.
It should be in the collector right before the turbo?
Oh, a ton of work here. Tons.
But, if i can control my greedy impulses and just DO WORK it -could/should- be a lot of fun with not a whole lot more to spend.
Bunch of life in the way right now,
Which is good because i need to study up.
Oh, and i didn't show off the transaxle i got in the deal as well.
It's full-house too!
Check this great receipt out.
Jack Raichart is the name of the guy who originally had the car built in the late 80s.
I vaguely recognize that name.
Anybody know him? Maybe he's on here?
Translating these old-school ratio numbers,
Looks like 3.11/1.93/1.22/0.89 with a 3.88.
Perfect for a big turbo motor in a light kit car.
Especially if you want "0-60 in 4.5 seconds " while also "low RPM" at freeway speeds.
"Call me when you recieve this"
Classic...
Still,
A pretty good compromise was reached for the goals set, eh?
Much more expensive than a close 3-4 to put in a mainshaft and leave stock 3-4.
Now that i have all the factory transaxle tooling, it's SO tempting to rip this trans apart and see what's in there!
But there's no reason to suspect anything,
So it'll get stabbed and ran.
Man, if there wasn't this life/work thing in the way all the time!! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1365
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Hey, look at that!
Paid for a $1250 Leighton trans, got a free motor.
Run it!
Don't drive it through puddles. |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! |
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Clatter,
You should be in jail for this buy. You didn't get a deal. You stole it!
The lack of cooling fins may be the result of running E85. But that's a guess.
The O2 sensor bung installs downstream of the turbo.
If you want a real challenge. Try and figure this pile of turbo, intecooling, and EFI,
Your set up looks easy, compared to what I'm gonna have to learn.
BTW, If you need it. I can loan you my copy of TurboMainia. Just let me know. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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