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Claydogh
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2020
Posts: 81
Location: NY
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 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:28 pm Post subject: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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Hey again! So. My exhaust was rusted so I tore that off, then the heater boxes seemed bad so I got those off. Then the exhaust head bolts all broke. Now my engine is torn apart. Thats how these things go I am finding very quickly!
So I have new heater boxes and am ordering head studs, but I have to remove these dang studs. Any tips? I tried welding nuts onto it but each nut would just tear the stud off further down, so I decided to pull the heads.
Also when I pulled the tins.... I found where the mice were hiding the rest of the headliner...
Yep, I am fully aware how I am very lucky that I pulled the tins all because of a few studs. The van would have absolutely lit on fire, if not entirely overheated because of how much junk is in the fins. I have been spared!
So here we are! Heads are off and going to clean everything down and start replacing broken things. However you folks know more than me so my question is, now that I am here, what should I absolutely do and or replace?
It is not every day my entire engine is apart so this seems like a good opportunity to do some upkeep.
Thanks for your advice in advanced,
Ben! |
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pathao
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2012
Posts: 291
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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Ohhhh sweet memories. The sky the limit, right!
Maybe not absolutely needed but I'm happy I did the grove for the (your futur ...) CHT gauge' sender ring (under #3 spark plug - so to not mush it).
What muffler do you intend to use ?
I did the early type 2 muffler and having ordered the spacers (https://germansupply.com/exhaust-spacer-kit-vanagon-80-83-w-early-type-2-muffler.html) came in handy. Now they are rusty, but they did save a lot of headache with the tins.
Speaking of tins, it looks like you are missing the tin where the AC compressor goes, I would definitely fix/hack that.
I would have a look at the timing scale. You know that little plastic "quadran" with degrees on it that is almost always broken (for your timing light). I replaced mine with a metal one.
Just wondering, Since You probably will end up looking at the clutch. So why not pull the engine out and place it on a stand. Much easier to play with it then. Also this could lead you to be tempted to check the crank end play.
Have fun
_________________
1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
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RolandD
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Joined: January 15, 2017
Posts: 247
Location: Menomonee Falls, Wis
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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I would try welding a new oversize nut on again, then heat the boss around the stud until you get real nervous before you try turning it out. On type I, I drilled them out with a tap drill on a vertical mill. The stud remains the come out like a helicoil.
Roland |
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GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 516
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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While you've got it out, check your heads for sunk valves, its pretty common on AC Vanagons as that engine is working really hard to move the rig around and will result in an EPIC failure if it drops a valve seat while running.
If you're gonna keep going, swapping in a better cam helps a ton. And if you're gonna do THAT upgrading the jugs to 96mm bores nets you a 2056cc engine (2.1L) that'll give you a bit of a bump in power. And if you wanna go even farther, there's all sorts of stuff you can do with enough money. Ask me how I know... My Vanagon has a 2.2L 150HP AC engine with Megasquirt fuel injection and crank fired ignition now  |
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Claydogh
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2020
Posts: 81
Location: NY
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:17 am Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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Great ideas guys!
@pathao I recently put a new cylinder head temp sensor back there but will certainly take a look while everything is out and make sure my drilling the old stuck one out didn't bugger anything.
This fancy muffler just arrived, so excited about that!
https://store.vintagespeed.com.tw/VW-T-3-TYPE-25-80~83-AIR-COOLED-VANAGON-SF-MUFFLER-p132913119
My timing scale is still in tact and that AC was just removed, ill be removing that plate and welding in a new piece and then rebolting!
I'd love -not- to drop the engine. The only reason I say that is because I have never driven the van and I have a feeling I'll be back in here again some day regardless. My idea is get it running because it will be easier to find what I actually need that way, and sometimes when you tear -everything- down intending to make it perfect, you never actually get it going at all.
@RolandD Thats the plan, I guess I'll just keep it up! Being not upside down will help a ton in my mind.
@GoEverywhere I got a picture for you, mainly because I had to google what a sunk valve looked like.
They look allright to me? I haven't gotten back to pull the other head off yet!
If you have any links to these jugs/cams I'd love to see them because I had no idea you could have a 150 hp AC....
So many people told me to scrap this engine and build a watercooled, but every day I am more and more delighted with the inner-workings of this engine.
Thanks folks~ |
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GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 516
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:28 am Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| Claydogh wrote: |
Great ideas guys!
@pathao I recently put a new cylinder head temp sensor back there but will certainly take a look while everything is out and make sure my drilling the old stuck one out didn't bugger anything.
This fancy muffler just arrived, so excited about that!
https://store.vintagespeed.com.tw/VW-T-3-TYPE-25-80~83-AIR-COOLED-VANAGON-SF-MUFFLER-p132913119
My timing scale is still in tact and that AC was just removed, ill be removing that plate and welding in a new piece and then rebolting!
I'd love -not- to drop the engine. The only reason I say that is because I have never driven the van and I have a feeling I'll be back in here again some day regardless. My idea is get it running because it will be easier to find what I actually need that way, and sometimes when you tear -everything- down intending to make it perfect, you never actually get it going at all.
@RolandD Thats the plan, I guess I'll just keep it up! Being not upside down will help a ton in my mind.
@GoEverywhere I got a picture for you, mainly because I had to google what a sunk valve looked like.
They look allright to me? I haven't gotten back to pull the other head off yet!
If you have any links to these jugs/cams I'd love to see them because I had no idea you could have a 150 hp AC....
So many people told me to scrap this engine and build a watercooled, but every day I am more and more delighted with the inner-workings of this engine.
Thanks folks~ |
That one seems ok, time to check the other one!
You can actually get quite a bit MORE than the 150HP I'm getting, it just costs money
The Porsche 914 guys (Their engine is a close cousin to our Type-4 aircooled engines) get TONS of power outa theirs. I've seen naturally aspirated type-4's pushing 250-300HP. And there's a guy here locally with a twin turbo 914 thats dyno verified 450HP!
Ok, for upgrades for your engine you'll have to decide how far you want to go. To get the 150HP I'm running is a lot of work, but you can make some nice power increases that'll get you to 90-100HP without going TOO crazy.
First off for cams you have two ways you can go. If you're gonna keep the stock fuel injection that'll limit your cam choices quite a bit. The stock injection won't operate properly with big camshafts. If you're going to stick with stock injection, the webcam 142 is basically the same as the Porsche 914 cam and was designed to work with the stock injection.
Now I'm NOT using stock injection, I'm using Megasquirt (you can get the whole setup at thedubshop.com or piece it together yourself for cheaper) so I went with a Scat C35 cam, which is too big for your stock injection to handle but is a LOT more aggressive than the Web 142. If you go bigger than the 142, you'll need stronger valve springs too.
Next are heads. The stock bus heads have very small valves. You can either keep them, or upgrade to 2.0L Porsche 914 heads that have much larger valves and flow better(I did this).
For cylinders your stock ones are 94mm. The largest that will fit without machining is 96mm and you can get a reasonably priced set here(https://www.qscusa.com/products/volkswagen-vw-type-4-96mm-x-71mm-cylinders-pistons-set). This is the set I used on my build.
Next up is crank. With your stock 71mm crank and that set of 96mm cylinders that pushes your engine size to 2056cc up from the stock 1971cc. I went with a 76mm crank that nets me 2200cc, and is the largest crank that you can put into a type-4 without machine work. WITH machine work you can get up to 3.1L
Finally I ditched the stock heater boxes and went with matched length headers. This helps exhaust flow IMMENSELY but eliminates the stock heater. My rig has two different heaters, one gas one propane, so I didn't miss the stock heat any. You might.
Everything you could want performance wise can be had at https://www.aircooled.net/
They're not the cheapest place to get things, but they have everything in one stop. If you do some research you can save a fair bit of cash.
Hope that brain dump wasn't too confusing |
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Claydogh
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2020
Posts: 81
Location: NY
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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@GoEverywhere My god...
This information is amazing, thanks so much for spelling it out, it really helps.
Not going to get too deep with Megasquirt just yet. Someday down the line, tricking out this van is absolutely in the cards but before I get too crazy I need to drive it and make sure we are best buds.
However I did break a fin and my cylinders are a bit crusty and filled with junk. I could clean them up or replace them with those 96mm cylinders you posted. (Things that I have to buy and just slap on is always in the cards!) Replacing those, because they should be replaced anyway, seems totally reasonable for right now.
Is just replacing the cylinders and no other cam/crank/valve stuff a bad idea? Or is that totally fine?
My reasoning is that I would love to keep moving along without diving DEEPER into the engine. More of a "next time I take this all apart its one less thing to upgrade"
Thanks again, now I have lots of ideas~ |
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GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 516
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| Claydogh wrote: |
@GoEverywhere My god...
This information is amazing, thanks so much for spelling it out, it really helps.
Not going to get too deep with Megasquirt just yet. Someday down the line, tricking out this van is absolutely in the cards but before I get too crazy I need to drive it and make sure we are best buds.
However I did break a fin and my cylinders are a bit crusty and filled with junk. I could clean them up or replace them with those 96mm cylinders you posted. (Things that I have to buy and just slap on is always in the cards!) Replacing those, because they should be replaced anyway, seems totally reasonable for right now.
Is just replacing the cylinders and no other cam/crank/valve stuff a bad idea? Or is that totally fine?
My reasoning is that I would love to keep moving along without diving DEEPER into the engine. More of a "next time I take this all apart its one less thing to upgrade"
Thanks again, now I have lots of ideas~ |
Swapping out just the pistons/cylinders is totally a viable option. You won't see a TON more performance by only swapping that but you'll get a bit. You'll also then have brand new pistons and rings that will be about 50% of what a full rebuild will get you(You miss out on bottom end bearings among other tings, but those tend to last quite a while anyway) and 75% of what makes an engine feel tired when it gets old. So its probably a good call.
Its also easy to do while you've got the heads off already. You're 90% of the way there! |
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Claydogh
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2020
Posts: 81
Location: NY
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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Awesome, I think that is the play then. I should probably do the little gaskets around the cylinders too then...
That and the rod tube o-rings, valve cover gasket, and obviously the whole exhaust system I think should get me back on track in not too long and also tidied up a bit.
Really appreciate it! |
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GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 516
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| Claydogh wrote: |
Awesome, I think that is the play then. I should probably do the little gaskets around the cylinders too then...
That and the rod tube o-rings, valve cover gasket, and obviously the whole exhaust system I think should get me back on track in not too long and also tidied up a bit.
Really appreciate it! |
Yep, you'll need cylinder base gaskets, and pushrod tube orings, and probably a couple other little things.
Good luck!! |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| With a fairly stock engine, something usually breaks in the transmission at around 150-200K miles. If you add greatly to your torque so you are pounding the tranny harder, I would NOT expect the tranny to have a long healthy life. The guys with high torque Diesels have had a real battle keeping their trannies together. |
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the joker
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Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 1287
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| service the thermostat flap system , any air leaks seal against engine compartment , |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| Claydogh wrote: |
So I have new heater boxes and am ordering head studs, but I have to remove these dang studs. Any tips? I tried welding nuts onto it but each nut would just tear the stud off further down, so I decided to pull the heads. |
See if someone local has an induction heating system for removing studs. If you need to drill them out, you can use the flanges off your old exhaust headers as drilling guides. |
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PDXWesty
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Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6242
Location: Portland OR
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GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 516
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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Daaaaammmmnnnnn. That should have an NSFW tag. Thats amazing. |
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Claydogh
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2020
Posts: 81
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:24 am Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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@the joker GOOD CATCH! To be honest, didn’t know what that thing was. Did my research, mine is totally buggered!
I’ll add it to my list, they are more expensive than I’d think so I may grab a second hand one.
@Wildthings Good thoughts all around. Will keep these in mind.
@PDXwesty I don’t think it will any time soon, but someday!
Back to the shop today, will let you know if I can get those studs out.
-Ben |
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Claydogh
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2020
Posts: 81
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:59 am Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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Oh no… found some gunk on the head. Looked like repair paste of some sort. Cleaned it off… oh no
And I cannot get these studs out, they just keep breaking.
So now I am screaming at studs that are stuck in a head that is already broken.
I am eyeing those porche heads heavily… |
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GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 516
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| Claydogh wrote: |
Oh no… found some gunk on the head. Looked like repair paste of some sort. Cleaned it off… oh no
And I cannot get these studs out, they just keep breaking.
So now I am screaming at studs that are stuck in a head that is already broken.
I am eyeing those porche heads heavily… |
Looks like someone was having problems with pushrod tube leaks. Seems like you usually find sealants like that when people can't get them to stop leaking. |
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Claydogh
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2020
Posts: 81
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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Yeah, look closely at those photos though, the heads are all cracked around the tubes. Theres three cracks between the two tubes and a bunch of machine marks. They broke it some how and glued it back together.
Ah the love of a previous owner… |
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: My engine is apart, what should I replace? AC 1981 Vanagon |
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| Claydogh wrote: |
Yeah, look closely at those photos though, the heads are all cracked around the tubes. Theres three cracks between the two tubes and a bunch of machine marks. They broke it some how and glued it back together.
Ah the love of a previous owner… |
Looks like a successful patch job to me! It was not leaking there, was it? BTW, this is not a normal failure, probably somebody dropped the head.
Not sure 914 2.0 liter heads are the answer. they have slightly different intake flanges, the spark plugs are in a different place, the exhaust flanges are different from 1979-83, which are called SQUARE PORT. Improved engine performance certainly needs bigger valves, the 2.0 bus and vanagon valves at 37.5/33 are ridiculously small. (Porsches 42/36).
Putting bigger valves and seats and porting square port heads might be best but, wow, is that ever expensive.
I once put together a 1978 bus engine with a bigger cam and 1974 heads (41/34 valves). It ran pretty good, maybe 90hp. bus would go 100mph. Kinda too fast! But the motor never did fail til I got rid of the bus at about 40k miles.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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