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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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Thanks for that spread sheet Pchill2. I'm likely splitting hairs but as a WAG, the cost to design and make the cradle/mount brackets you made might be somewhat higher, on average, than prices you show. And on that note, I'd guess that getting someone to make a cradle similar to the Bostig part would be much higher.
As to crank position relative to body, I marked that off partly as a point of interest and/or to provide a stock reference point for others' but also to get a reference point to possibly compare the install I did to the stock Vanagon diesel engine position.
As to L/R drivetrain position, you may've done this but in hindsight, I should've opened up the engine to bracket mount holes and/or holes at carrier to frame a bit to allow adjustment of engine L/R position. Although I marked off the WBX drivetrain before engine removal, I think that during the much dragged out conversion process, the drivetrain could've gotten jostled around and mis aligned a bit. i.e. providing more L/R adjustment room might've been helpful. That said, it runs fine but I do wonder if one of the flange seals at transmission is getting beat up by the end of a CV axle. Anyhow....
Thanks again for the info and pics.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| That said, it runs fine but I do wonder if one of the flange seals at transmission is getting beat up by the end of a CV axle. Anyhow.... |
You could pull your rear springs and jack up your control arms to ensure you have enough plunge left in your axles. You don’t need much on these vans in the rear because there’s minimal if any track width change of the trailing arms.
You should have equal plunge drivers side and passenger side. Could be an easy experiment to give you peace of mind.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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1988M5
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2016
Posts: 674
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Pchill2 wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| That said, it runs fine but I do wonder if one of the flange seals at transmission is getting beat up by the end of a CV axle. Anyhow.... |
You could pull your rear springs and jack up your control arms to ensure you have enough plunge left in your axles. You don’t need much on these vans in the rear because there’s minimal if any track width change of the trailing arms.
You should have equal plunge drivers side and passenger side. Could be an easy experiment to give you peace of mind. |
If it hasn't been mentioned, the automatics have different length driveshafts. Possibly lost in translation sometime during it's life?
BK
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1991 tin top GL
2002 Winnebago Vista. VW VR6 24V Eurovan front clip powered class C 21' RV.
Some BMWs. |
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hellvetica
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Joined: May 24, 2021
Posts: 40
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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Man, this is an amazing thread. Well done. Bravo.
I dabbled in the Honda import scene many years ago, and rad to see this happening. I remember when K series swaps first came on the scene (I bought Katman's Blacksheep2 Type R motor when he went K-series).
Thanks for sharing and hope this thing gives you many miles of smiles. |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Pchill2 wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| [edited] As to L/R drivetrain position, ...... |
You could pull your rear springs and jack up your control arms to ensure you have enough plunge left in your axles. You don’t need much on these vans in the rear because there’s minimal if any track width change of the trailing arms.
You should have equal plunge drivers side and passenger side. Could be an easy experiment to give you peace of mind. |
Thanks. To others making custom carrier(s), mounts....
It would likely make sense to mark off drivetrain "centre" to body while vehicle is on the ground vs when raised during conversion process.
In hindsight, that's an easy thing to observe but when a newb like me is involved with "a hundred" other things during a complex conversion, easy to miss a detail, or more. 
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Thanks for that spread sheet Pchill2. I'm likely splitting hairs but as a WAG, the cost to design and make the cradle/mount brackets you made might be somewhat higher, on average, than prices you show. And on that note, I'd guess that getting someone to make a cradle similar to the Bostig part would be much higher.
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My estimates were just based on a production tooled part, not what a hand built prototype would cost.
I don't have access to a tube bender right now but the design could be significantly simplified if I did. All of my metal work was done at home with a chop saw and angle grinder for the plate. The prototype R&D group at my employer was in the process of moving all of their equipment and machinery to a different facility down the road. Normally I have access to the full machine shop but didn't want to get in the way so I just did everything the "hard" way.
Ideally it would be a CNC bent tube cradle with burn and bend engine mount pads. I would probably do the frame interface identical to the Syncro mustache bar which is very simple and effective.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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Been busy lately but still putting the miles on the new motor swap and all is going pretty well.
Couple of outstanding swap issues:
1. Coolant gauge reads high but engine is not overheating. I believe this is because I am using the ECU output for the coolant gauge signal and it may not have the same resistance sweep. I'll be adding an inline potentiometer to dial in the gauge and will make a separate post on this if successful.
2. Fuel gauge reading 3/4's when "full" although I've not been able to determine if the fuel tank is actually full yet. I replaced the fuel sender but may have bent the calibration tabs when installing and not noticed.
Both of these could be related to a faulty voltage regulator in the cluster but voltage at the fuel tank sender is within spec (10V) leading me to believe these are separate issues.
Meanwhile the wife decided to chip in on her portion of the build:
New interior from Sewfine! Still waiting on the door cards but got all the upholstery to get started on the seats/beds.
Black Jet vinyl seats front seats, Light Gray Tweed rear seat and upper/lower beds.
She also wanted a headunit with CarPlay and XM radio. I'm not super enthusiastic about it but it something she really wants and we plan on enjoying this vehicle together. I would have preferred a more OE style option rather than a big screen but I'll pick my battles wisely.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Kdj
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Joined: January 28, 2017
Posts: 142
Location: Naptown
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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A wise man once said "Happy wife, Happy Life". Good choice on picking your fights.  |
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Pchill2
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Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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I've easily put 2000 miles on the swap thus far, including a trip up through North Georgia into Nantahala NF in western North Carolina this weekend.
This was my first real trip away from where I live in Georgia. There are some very steep, switchback mountain roads that gain well over 1500 feet of elevation which the van climbed superbly.
With the WBX engine, a single switchback would absolutely kill my momentum and I would find myself desperately switching between 1st and 2nd gear. With the swap I can now stay in 3rd gear easily and was passing slower vehicles.
Entering Nantahala from the west, there is a long stretch of 7% grade that gains 1500 feet but does not have tight switchbacks. The van happily chugged up at 65 mph in 4th gear so all in all, I am very pleased with it's performance so far.
Next trip I'll do a full report.
Couple pictures I haven't posted yet:
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Pchill2
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Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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My fuel gauge has been more than a minor irritant. I swapped out a brand new sender when I had the powertrain out but upon fueling the gauge would only reach maybe 1/2-3/4 of a tank.
The sender is the aftermarket (non-VDO) unit. Upon inspection of the sender that I pulled out, it was in fact an aftermarket sender as well.
Pulled out the filler tube to see what was going on in there. You can see in the pictures that the float is hovering above the fuel line and the armature is contacting the stop tabs. Just as a note, the van was jacked up on one side so the fuel level looks higher on the sender side than it actually was.
I didn't feel like puling the sender out and calibrating it according to the GoWesty instruction and attempted to bend the float arm downwards without disturbing the limiting tab on the sending unit.
I did this with the jack handle from my engine hoist by engaging the armature rod with the slotted tabs on the end. I twisted the arm until it came in contact with the bottom of the tank.
End result is a slightly mangled looking armature rod and a fully functioning fuel gauge...
Also worth mentioning that I drained and flushed the fuel tank while I was swapping the engine. You can see all the debris in the bottom of the tank that has accumulated in only a few fill ups.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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very cool pics of fuel tank et al. I've never looked at a Syncro tank but would guess it was a little tricky to do that work, tank installed. I'm surprised to see that "much" dirt at bottom of tank.
I'm studying your exhaust pics. Not sure where one might fit a cat, if no cat at manifold, but I like the short clean design.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
very cool pics of fuel tank et al. I've never looked at a Syncro tank but would guess it was a little tricky to do that work, tank installed. I'm surprised to see that "much" dirt at bottom of tank.
I'm studying your exhaust pics. Not sure where one might fit a cat, if no cat at manifold, but I like the short clean design.
Neil. |
The syncro level sender is a pain but not calibrating it before I put the tank and powertrain back in is a mistake I’ll only make once. Next time I would bench calibrate it with the tank outside the van.
The exhaust could fit a cat for sure. The only problem I would anticipate with it being so close to the muffler is the excessive amount of heat generated by the reaction in the cat. It may damage the muffler over time. That muffler was very cheap though.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Silverghost500
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Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1089
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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Met Pchill2 yesterday. Great guy, and has the enthusiasm we need in carrying our Vanagon hobbies forward. His Syncro is an awesome van, and he's really done a great job with it.
His K24 engine conversion is really impressive! Folks, in my opinion of what I saw in the engine bay, and the performance during the drive has me believing this is a neck and neck competitor to Subaru swaps.
The engineering thought he put into this build is spot on, and so is the execution. That engine fits so well in the engine bay, with no mods to the deck lid height. Think a Subaru or Bostig make the engine bay clean up? Wait till you see this in person!
The K24 engine delivers great, smooth power. That Syncro is a heavy vehicle, and the K24 pushed the van with ease. It really made the van feel like a performance vehicle, and it sounds like it with the current exhaust configuration. There's some ECU tuning that could be made that will probably improve the performance even more.
I walked away from the experience really impressed. So much so I called KEP this morning and verified they have adapter kits to mate the K24 engine to Vanagon manual AND automatic transmissions!
After that call I've made up my mind. This is the conversion I'll be putting in my van!
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Silverghost500 wrote: |
Met Pchill2 yesterday. Great guy, and has the enthusiasm we need in carrying our Vanagon hobbies forward. His Syncro is an awesome van, and he's really done a great job with it.
His K24 engine conversion is really impressive! Folks, in my opinion of what I saw in the engine bay, and the performance during the drive has me believing this is a neck and neck competitor to Subaru swaps.
The engineering thought he put into this build is spot on, and so is the execution. That engine fits so well in the engine bay, with no mods to the deck lid height. Think a Subaru or Bostig make the engine bay clean up? Wait till you see this in person!
The K24 engine delivers great, smooth power. That Syncro is a heavy vehicle, and the K24 pushed the van with ease. It really made the van feel like a performance vehicle, and it sounds like it with the current exhaust configuration. There's some ECU tuning that could be made that will probably improve the performance even more.
I walked away from the experience really impressed. So much so I called KEP this morning and verified they have adapter kits to mate the K24 engine to Vanagon manual AND automatic transmissions!
After that call I've made up my mind. This is the conversion I'll be putting in my van!
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Absolutely a pleasure to meet you and Von Westy. Very nice van and well cared for!
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Pchill2
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Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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The wife and I are hoping to pull all the carpets out and replace with the OEM style floor mats. I found a few of the pieces overseas at various vendors and so far have received the front section and am still hoping to track down the aisle, right fender, and left pedestal covers...
Installed the head unit. Fits and functions pretty well.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Pchill2 wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| I'm studying your exhaust pics. Not sure where one might fit a cat, if no cat at manifold, but I like the short clean design. |
The exhaust could fit a cat for sure. The only problem I would anticipate with it being so close to the muffler is the excessive amount of heat generated by the reaction in the cat. It may damage the muffler over time. That muffler was very cheap though. |
I studied your exhaust pics again. Helpful to see. I'm now a fan of the "toilet bowl" design downpipe which is what I used on my conversion. In my case the main possible downside to parts used is that a replacement VW Mk2 manifold is likely to find. However, no exhaust cracking issues in ~ 45K kms. Of course my hope is that your exhaust lives a long time but will be curious to see if having the muffler end connected to van body contributes to any possible cracking issues. I doubt it will though.
Some years ago I recall staring at my '04 Accord 2.4 i-vtec engine wondering if the profile of it would be low enough to fit in a Vanagon (2wd). Can't recall if it turned CW but I think it did. Great to see a build with a Honda engine and nice to see the progress on your build. Thanks for posting the pics and info.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Pchill2 wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| I'm studying your exhaust pics. Not sure where one might fit a cat, if no cat at manifold, but I like the short clean design. |
The exhaust could fit a cat for sure. The only problem I would anticipate with it being so close to the muffler is the excessive amount of heat generated by the reaction in the cat. It may damage the muffler over time. That muffler was very cheap though. |
I studied your exhaust pics again. Helpful to see. I'm now a fan of the "toilet bowl" design downpipe which is what I used on my conversion. In my case the main possible downside to parts used is that a replacement VW Mk2 manifold is likely to find. However, no exhaust cracking issues in ~ 45K kms. Of course my hope is that your exhaust lives a long time but will be curious to see if having the muffler end connected to van body contributes to any possible cracking issues. I doubt it will though.
Some years ago I recall staring at my '04 Accord 2.4 i-vtec engine wondering if the profile of it would be low enough to fit in a Vanagon (2wd). Can't recall if it turned CW but I think it did. Great to see a build with a Honda engine and nice to see the progress on your build. Thanks for posting the pics and info.
Neil. |
Exhaust seems to be working well but it's one of those parts that may not have an issue until 50k miles of fatigue and heat cycles. I do plan on adding a very small turbo at some point in the future so the exhaust will have to be redesigned then.
I drove up to Atlanta last week and stopped in a shop that specializes in tuning the K series Honda motor. Funny thing was they were in process of swapping a K20 into an early VW bug using the same adapter I got from KEP.
They took several photos of my exhaust setup for ideas in their build.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Sodo
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Posts: 9615
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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I think Honda engines are much more reliable than Subaru. Im envious.
| Pchill2 wrote: |
With the WBX engine, a single switchback would absolutely kill my momentum and I would find myself desperately switching between 1st and 2nd gear. With the swap I can now stay in 3rd gear easily and was passing slower vehicles.
Entering Nantahala from the west, there is a long stretch of 7% grade that gains 1500 feet but does not have tight switchbacks. The van happily chugged up at 65 mph in 4th gear so all in all, … |
Everyone goes thru that stage but don’t make sustained throughput a habit.
Right now it’s crucial to store in memory, how the WBX drove.
Don’t flush the memories.
To allow your -next- gearbox to survive you will need to “consult your inner WBX”.
Recommend adding a temperature gauge to assist in the decision making.
And maintain the gearbox as if its a valuable, over-driven, and likely geriatric component thats full of NLA parts.
Over-driven new parts will let loose with metal and contaminate your oil with steel. Really old parts are worse.
Gotta dump that metal out as often as you can tolerate.
It’s likely that your gearbox was not maintained at all, and consequently in very poor condition.
I don’t know how many times I’ve read of people having trouble getting the plugs out because they haven’t been touched since new.
And, the Syncro retains a bunch of dirty oil in each box if you drain it on the level. See this post.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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| Sodo wrote: |
I think Honda engines are much more reliable than Subaru. Im envious.
| Pchill2 wrote: |
With the WBX engine, a single switchback would absolutely kill my momentum and I would find myself desperately switching between 1st and 2nd gear. With the swap I can now stay in 3rd gear easily and was passing slower vehicles.
Entering Nantahala from the west, there is a long stretch of 7% grade that gains 1500 feet but does not have tight switchbacks. The van happily chugged up at 65 mph in 4th gear so all in all, … |
Everyone goes thru that stage but don’t make sustained throughput a habit.
Right now it’s crucial to store in memory, how the WBX drove.
Don’t flush the memories.
To allow your -next- gearbox to survive you will need to “consult your inner WBX”.
Recommend adding a temperature gauge to assist in the decision making.
And maintain the gearbox as if its a valuable, over-driven, and likely geriatric component thats full of NLA parts.
Over-driven new parts will let loose with metal and contaminate your oil with steel. Really old parts are worse.
Gotta dump that metal out as often as you can tolerate.
It’s likely that your gearbox was not maintained at all, and consequently in very poor condition.
I don’t know how many times I’ve read of people having trouble getting the plugs out because they haven’t been touched since new.
And, the Syncro retains a bunch of dirty oil in each box if you drain it on the level. See this post. |
I changed the gear oil about a month ago with the front end raised slightly. I was actually able to drain 5 quarts of oil. I leveled the van out and the transmission took on right at 5 quarts of oil.
The magnet had some swarf but looked on par with other images I've seen.
Next time I'll send off a sample to Blacksone Labs to see what metals are present.
One cool thing about the ECU I'm using (Hondata KPro V4) is that it can handle several analog inputs for additional sensors and specifically outline what part numbers and brands to use and how to wire them to the computer.
Once they are wired to the computer, the signal can be transmitted via Bluetooth to my cellphone and displayed in their app.
https://www.hondata.com/help/kmanager/index.html?analog_temperature.htm
Since I have unused connectors at the transmission (vehicle speed sensor, reverse light sensor), I can reporpose those to integrate a transmission oil temp sender by re-pinning my ECU plug to the analog input.
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87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Silverghost500
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Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1089
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Honda K24 Swapped 87 Syncro Camper Build |
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Using the Hondata ECU is another advantage over the Subaru conversions. To my knowledge there's not an ECU mod like this for the Subaru ECU. You'd probably have to go with a Link or Haltech ECU and wiring system.
I'm really looking forward to when you get it up to the tuner in ATL to see what this engine's capable of with it's current parts configuration!
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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