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WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped
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coolairX2
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

So I have been having an issue since late last year with my split. It has me stumped to be honest. Maybe the collective VW smarts can give me some guidance.

Just to set the background this is an Okrassa 1536cc 36hp engine I built in the early 2000's. It is running 12v with 010 dist and somewhat new Pertronix ignition (2 years). Been running great for the last 15 years up until late last year.

Late last year I drove an hour to a show and it started dying on the drive home. Seemed like it was being starved for fuel at the time. I had to tow it back and have been trying to resolve it since I got it out of storage.

It seemed to be losing spark or gas but if I down shift and gave it some rpms it would roar back to life a little longer but eventually it would quit. I could restart and idle fine but a few minutes later at speed it would be dying again. If I restarted and let it idle it was fine for as long as I let it idle. If I then start driving normally within 5-10 minutes the same symptoms would re-occur.

Checked the gas lines replaced the tap and filter.
Tested the Gen ok and replaced the Regulator.
Battery is good at least it has enough juice keep on restarting.

Still dying after just a few minutes of driving but idles/revs fine as long as I let it. It even drives fine for 5-10 minutes like nothing is wrong. But by the end of my road it is sputtering and only be rev'ing it can I make it back.

Next is put the points back in or maybe check the chassis ground. I don't think it's the carbs as it seems to idle and rev forever. It is the running under load for a few minutes that seems to cause an issue. Though I could be completely wrong on the carbs

The Pertronix ignition is only 2 years old. I had this same setup in my Ghia for years without any trouble. Not sure if this is the culprit.

Before I go and replace everything I haven't look at hoping someone has a tip
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

Why not try a known good distributor with points to take the electronic ignition out of the equation. Then decide which way to go.

Fuel filter good?

Strainer good?
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

Sounds like a fuel pump issue.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

i'm seconding that /\ suggestion. years ago i had an electronic ignition go off and it gave all sorts of weird symptoms, from memory similar to those you mentioned. (that motor gave me endless trouble, so remembering exactly what went with each problem is difficult over 20 years later)
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

When it stalls out, how easily does it restart? Do you have to crank it a bit, or does it light off immediately?
Are you running a 6 or 12 volt pertronix? What coil? Have you checked the primary and secondary resistance? A failing coil can do weird things, similar to what you describe.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

geneL3c wrote:
Sounds like a fuel pump issue.


X2

Try a new diaphragm in the fuel pump or check pressure
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

If you are going to chase a fuel problem, make sure it is a fuel problem. See if you can run the car on carb cleaner. If so, check the output.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

gas tank venting. Take the cap off and drive it to see if it does it.
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VWFIXER
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

So far my only opinion is, a solid state pertronix ignition is either good or dead.

Nice Bug btw,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I’m curious about the fuel issues, why did you replace fuel filter and tap, and how does the filter look? Smell?
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

Hello,

Try the simple stuff first, like Bruce suggests. I also think it could be the tank is vacuuming.

BR,

Rob
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

esde wrote:
When it stalls out, how easily does it restart? Do you have to crank it a bit, or does it light off immediately?
Are you running a 6 or 12 volt pertronix? What coil? Have you checked the primary and secondary resistance? A failing coil can do weird things, similar to what you describe.

It starts back fairly reliably unless I have drained the battery. Everything will seem fine it will start, idle. So off I go drive another few minutes down the road and it happens again. If I have momentum and still moving just down shifting will often start it back and I can sometimes get a little further if I keep the revs up. Eventually this doesn't work and I will be stranded.
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coolairX2
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
Why not try a known good distributor with points to take the electronic ignition out of the equation. Then decide which way to go.

Fuel filter good?

Strainer good?

I replaced the tank filter, tap. There is one more at the exit of the fuel line in back. Have not checked that one yet. That is an easy enough thing to check. It idles fine but maybe when the flow increases it might block it somehow
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

VWFIXER wrote:
So far my only opinion is, a solid state pertronix ignition is either good or dead.

Nice Bug btw,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I’m curious about the fuel issues, why did you replace fuel filter and tap, and how does the filter look? Smell?


Well I did have some issue with the fuel tap that seemed to not run unless I left it on reserve. Or at least that is what I thought. The car felt like it was being starved for fuel and would always restart. So that was my line of thinking.

I imagined the longer fuel tap was being blocked. Either by the plastic separator in the fuel filter or some particles in the tank. The plastic crush piece was riding above the tap and not over it. So I thought it was being sucked down onto the tap cutting the fuel. Seemed like a great theory until I proved that incorrect by cleaning the tank replaced the filter and tap.

So my thinking is changing thinking it is spark not fuel now that I have ruled out most of the fuel system. Cannot believe it is the pump as it idles fine and will even run fine for 5-10 minutes.
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VWFIXER
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

coolairX2 wrote:
VWFIXER wrote:
So far my only opinion is, a solid state pertronix ignition is either good or dead.

Nice Bug btw,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I’m curious about the fuel issues, why did you replace fuel filter and tap, and how does the filter look? Smell?


Well I did have some issue with the fuel tap that seemed to not run unless I left it on reserve. Or at least that is what I thought. The car felt like it was being starved for fuel and would always restart. So that was my line of thinking.

I imagined the longer fuel tap was being blocked. Either by the plastic separator in the fuel filter or some particles in the tank. The plastic crush piece was riding above the tap and not over it. So I thought it was being sucked down onto the tap cutting the fuel. Seemed like a great theory until I proved that incorrect by cleaning the tank replaced the filter and tap.

So my thinking is changing thinking it is spark not fuel now that I have ruled out most of the fuel system. Cannot believe it is the pump as it idles fine and will even run fine for 5-10 minutes.


I’ve seen original fuel lines, the one going from front to back plugged with all kinds of stuff. Even 60 years of “dust” coating the line all the way down. Like clogged arteries. Your description matches perfectly to the type of event I’ve experienced and repaired. On many types of vehicles.
That’s not to say that’s the problem you are experiencing for sure. Many people think science; and mechanics are real good at that. But true science requires taking stuff apart. Educated guesswork is the stuff of esoteric finesse and it’s a small club.
Anyone who has seen that dust on the bottom of a carburetor should know the tank and lines have it also.
It passes through filters like they’re not even there. It’s the same with old syrup in the tank.
—-

When was the last time it ran the way you’ve always known it to run? That trip to the show? Cause that’s got my hair on my neck standing up.
Cause it’s possible that you got a bad tank of gas with junk described above.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

Could it be the fuel pump pushrod binding in the bakelite piece? Or, maybe your fuel pump pushrod has worn down and is providing too short of a stroke to keep up the fuel flow rate required to run under load?
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
If you are going to chase a fuel problem, make sure it is a fuel problem. See if you can run the car on carb cleaner. If so, check the output.

Indeed, ignition issues can seem an awful lot like fuel issues sometimes.
I've seen a couple electronic points replacement modules semi fail in the way you describe, crapping out on the highway but still driveable at low speeds.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

kpf wrote:
Could it be the fuel pump pushrod binding in the bakelite piece? Or, maybe your fuel pump pushrod has worn down and is providing too short of a stroke to keep up the fuel flow rate required to run under load?


If this were the case I believe it wouldn't be so black and white, that it would sputter. When it quits it quits like the coil was disconnected. And the coil was the first thing I replaced. And down shifting and reving should't bring it back to life.
The more I talk it out the more I suspect the electronic ignition. I have driven it for nearly 15 years on points without any issues. The electronic ignition was the last item I added a few years ago. Of course I drove for a many months before it started acting up.
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

It sounds like a fuel issue to me. Try blowing out the fuel hard line, from back to front, with compressed air.
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

Still sounds like a fuel pump problem !
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: WTF, I am the chump and I am stumped Reply with quote

I had a similar problem with my Oval years ago. Would run fine then slowly die on the road, especially at speed. I got proof of the issue when it died on the road and I pulled over and took the top off the carb to find the bowl was empty. Issue turned out to be a deteriorating fuel pump diaphram.

Of course looking into the bowl(s) on yours might not be that easy. But I'll spare you the "should have left it stock" lecture.... Wink
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