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New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' !
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mj2k
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
And that is the million dollar question! I would leave it until you get that quarter panel repaired. No sense in losing focus or momentum from being over zealous! Ask me how I know!!!!

Baby steps!


Ha ha, true, and I certainly don't want to risk the entire front end falling off in a cloud of rust if I remove the only thing holding it together Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Cut a tiny bit more of the right hand inner wing out, but temperatures have been seriously below zero for about a week, so the garage is too cold to work in for more than a few minutes, even with a heater.

So instead did some finances (always a dangerous thing) - I've made about a $250 profit over the purchase price of the Super by selling parts which I don't need, but I made about a $280 loss when I sold the awful LIFEPO4 batteries I bought from Aliexpress, so just about breaking even overall.

But I was very lucky to get away with even a $280 loss on the batteries - even the really bad ones sold unexpectedly well for DIY power walls because there have been threats of power cuts in England, and lithium batteries in any condition are in demand in Europe. So there is a moral to this story even though the outcome's not as bad as it could have been - if you do decide to build an EV, don't buy your batteries from Aliexpress!

I'm not going to attempt to calculate the cost of all the panels I need to repair the Super's shell though - I knew it was beyond economic repair before I started on it, so the costs are likely to be quite scary Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

It was just about warm enough to remove the last of the inner wing at lunch time, one small cut with the angle grinder, and the rest was removed with pliers Rolling Eyes

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The good news: Except for the area around my friend Woodie, the rest of the firewall above the Napoleon's Hat looks like it'll be easy to rescue, so that's a result Smile

The bad news: The important angled strengthener between the inner wing and the firewall had completely rotted away behind the metal patch which was covering it, so I hope the one on the new inner wing is as strong, there's no way I'm going to be able to rescue the original.

Edit: Also did a quick trial fit of the new inner wing so I know what needs reshaping and so I can make some rough lines on what'll need cutting to fit, and it's pretty close to what it should be, even without me doing anything! I'd say that's either a very good sign about the inner wing's quality, or a very bad sign about the bodyshell's quality Laughing

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Reminder to myself of things I need to do before I get too carried away:
Fix the firewall and Napoleon's hat!
Drill the holes in the outer side to mount the steering box; the holes on the inner side and the bracing for the bolt holes are already there.
Modify the fuel filler mount to take a BMW Type 2 EV charging socket.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Reading through this I felt so much more relaxed once I saw the trial fit of the new inner wing. Cool

P.S. Maybe throw a strut brace accross the top of the shock towers before both sides are permanently welded up? Just as an added confirmation of alignment.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Buggeee wrote:
Reading through this I felt so much more relaxed once I
saw the trial fit of the new inner wing. Cool

P.S. Maybe throw a strut brace accross the top of the shock towers before both sides are permanently welded up? Just as an added confirmation of alignment.


Good idea, I was thinking about getting a brace anyway so makes sense to do sooner than later Thumbs Up

I was relieved too, I just hope it's fitting so well because it's a good panel and not because there's nothing left of the bits it should be hitting Surprised Still, I suspect many UK Supers are in a similar condition - most had already been scrapped by the early 1990s and all bugs were regarded as classics by the mid 90s, so there was a lot of incentive to get the remaining ones back on the road, no matter how bad they were.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Still way too cold to do anything much (the UK climate seems to have swapped round - northern Scotland is nice and warm but in southern England where I am, the ground is still frozen!) but the strut brace has just been delivered:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's a fairly hefty piece of steel but it should give me the fixed point of reference I so badly need for the new inner wings, and if I permanently weld it on when done it'll increase the strength and stiffness of the front end considerably, especially if I then extend the brace back to the bulkhead / firewall. If anyone else is interested in a non-adjustable strut brace made from girders, I got mine from this French company:

https://www.mecatechnic.com/en-GB/spare-parts-vw-beetle

And I also chopped the remains of the old inner wing to check my BMW-sourced fast charge port will fit in a standard Super fuel flap, went ahead and made the cuts on the new wing, and straightened the surrounding fuel filler's metal as much as possible:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've still got to do a fair bit of fabrication to support the port, but all looking good so far.

Note - this is a European standard CCS Type 2 port. US Type 1 version is slightly different but takes up the same space, so should also fit, though the Japanese and Chinese DC fast charging ports are completely different, and won't fit. US spec Tesla port will also fit, but is different yet again; EU spec Teslas use the CCS Type 2 port. Gotta love those international EV charging standards, every continent has a different one d'oh!

Edit: decided to cut off the remains of the fuel filler flush with the wing, so I can weld in a simple shaped plate for the charging port to bolt onto. Not quite as pretty / elegant as my original complex idea of mounting c section rails on posts so the BMW unit could slide in, but will be stronger and a lot simpler to implement, as well as meaning I can cut / drill the panel to match any new charging standards which come out (there will inevitably be more...!) and meaning I won't have to worry about charging cables fouling the remains of the fuel filler, or the flap.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Well, that was a lot more hassle than I expected, altogether about 4 hour's work, but finally I've got one tiny job done towards the EV conversion:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It took a long time to shape the new plate to fit around the charging socket whilst still providing sufficent strength for the mounting holes, but it all lines up nicely, fuel filler flap closes and sits (almost) flush, and it's extremely strong. Just need to work out what I've done with the flap's proper mounting screws and the little rubber stopper Rolling Eyes

This is one silver lining to the cloud of having to replace the inner wing - doing this would have been near impossible with the wing on the car, so I'd have had to put the charging socket elsewhere.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

mj2k wrote:
Just need to work out what I've done with the flap's proper mounting screws and the little rubber stopper Rolling Eyes


If it's like my house, they will reveal themselves the day their replacements are delivered to your door! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Buggeee wrote:
mj2k wrote:
Just need to work out what I've done with the flap's proper mounting screws and the little rubber stopper Rolling Eyes


If it's like my house, they will reveal themselves the day their replacements are delivered to your door! Very Happy


Or they'll turn up in a decade's time after I've forgotten what they're for or even which car they came from, like some random old Fiat part I found in a box recently Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Temperature's gone up a few degrees, so managed to make a bit more progress today:

Drilled through the mounting holes for the steering box, and fitted a nice, new steering box fully torqued down to make sure there's enough strength in the panel. There is Smile

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also cut through the siezed bolts on the idler so I could remove that, along with the rest of the steering gear. Then carefully lowered the chassis; I'm keeping it beneath the shell, pivoting on rods through the rear body mounts so I can easily jack it up and check parts fitment as I go along.

And finally I could remove my old friend Woodie, along with the remains of the original inner wing, in the dust pan Laughing

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Luckily it looks like the Napoleon's Hat is intact on that side from 1/2" before the repair panel finishes and the bottom plate's already been replaced, so that should be quite straightforward. The firewall is a different matter however, pics to follow when I attack it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

I'm getting on well with preparing the Napoleon's Hat for it's repair section - it's solid and rust-free about 1" from the brake master cylinder mount and the bottom of the napoleon's Hat has already been replaced with a good quality panel, so now I've ground off the rusty remains of the old end section, all I need to do is cut the new panel to shape, and weld it in.

Only 'buts' to this so far have been accidentally grinding through a new copper brake pipe I couldn't remove, but since I don't really like the idea of having a pressurized, flammable, corrosive fluid flowing through the passenger compartment (the new brake pipe was routed through the footwells where it could get damaged) it'll give me a good excuse to reroute the pipe when I replace it. Oh, and I had to cut the very edge off the floorpan and floorpan strengthener to allow me to clean up / weld where the new section will be, but those areas will be easy to patch afterwards.


Last edited by mj2k on Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Preparation for fitting the new Napoleon's hat end is going well, but got distracted by a bunch of 2nd hand steering components arriving. The original equipment idler is terrible quality for the later curved screen 1303 Supers in the UK, not sure if it's the same in the USA but the right hand drive version's just a piece of pressed steel with a bearing in it (which on mine was, naturally, badly corroded) whereas the flat screen 1302 one's a nice solid bit of cast aluminium. And I prefer the earlier 1302 solid control arms to the later flimsy pressed steel ones. But I've now got all the components I need to rebuild the steering with the heavier but more robust early Super parts, so hopefully the steering will feel a lot more positive when it's mounted on something which doesn't bend like a Coke can...

Last edited by mj2k on Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

mj2k wrote:
Preparation for fitting the new Napoleon's hat end is going well, but got distracted by a bunch of 2nd hand steering components arriving. The original equipment idler is terrible quality for the later curved screen 1303 Supers in the UK, not sure if it's the same in the USA but the right hand drive version's just a piece of pressed steel with a bearing in it (which on mine was, naturally, badly corroded) whereas the flat screen 1302 one's a nice solid bit of cast aluminium. And I prefer the earlier 1302 solid tie rods to the later flimsy pressed steel ones. But I've now got all the components I need to rebuild the steering with the heavier but more robust early Super parts, so hopefully the steering will feel a lot more positive when it's mounted on something which doesn't bend like a Coke can...


That's interesting. Also the control arms on the 71-72 Super are like cast iron girders or something, whereas the later control arms are a pressed steel like shows up in the rabbits/golf.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:16 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Buggeee wrote:
That's interesting. Also the control arms on the 71-72 Super are like cast iron girders or something, whereas the later control arms are a pressed steel like shows up in the rabbits/golf.


Oops, meant control arms not tie rods Embarassed

Also I reckon having the full lock stop bolts on the idler pressing against the arm in the earlier version is a better solution than having them on the box's Pitman arm; unless I'm mistaken, they press against the wing in the later version, which can't be good.

I can't imagine the Super needed to lose weight at the front and I can't think of any other good reason for the changes in the later models, so it must just have been done for cost reasons.

Also, whilst looking into the Super's steering changes throughout it's life, I think I've worked out why there are so few post-'74 bugs with a steering rack over here - the rack mounts are on the bottom of the inner wing where they'll catch quite a bit of road muck and condensation, so I bet they all rusted out there, failed their MOT (the UK's vehicle safety inspection) and prematurely ended up in scrapyards.

Out of interest, unlike the standard bug, the Super's tie rods (all versions) fit either LHD or RHD, which was presumably another (more welcome) cost saving.

Edit: stopped being distracted by fiddling about with LHD and RHD steering components (the only different bits are the box and idler plus their arms) and got the replacement Napoleon's hat end prepped for welding. Next stop - drill a few holes for plug welds (or maybe try out my new spot welder toy if it'll fit) and then seam weld round the whole lot.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Finally got the Napoleon's Hat end repair done - took the best part of 30 hours all-in Shocked

Still, it's nice and strong now, and I've strengthened the floorpan a little too:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And now onto the next horror story - the bulkhead / firewall.:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Luckily the repacement heater channel front section wasn't butchered when it was fitted so by pushing rods through the chassis and up through the panel shown in the 1st picture I can align it properly, and though the firewall is around 60% rotten beneath the patches, the remaining 40% is the tricky to replace bit, so I'll leave that be Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Very nice progress on the Nap Hat end! That is a big alignment point!

If you still have the nuts inside the old channels, you can use long studs from an old engine case for the reference rods! Well, as long as you are not more than 152mm away!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
Very nice progress on the Nap Hat end! That is a big alignment point!

If you still have the nuts inside the old channels, you can use long studs from an old engine case for the reference rods! Well, as long as you are not more than 152mm away!


Thanks, i was quite pleased with the result too Smile

I have got some nice long studs which I picked up from a DIY shop which'll do the job nicely, even if it is more than 152mm away. There certainly were nuts left in the old channels, but they're the kind which grow on trees, so not terribly useful Wink Presumably a rodent was nesting in there but thankfully it must have left before before the rotting mess was plated over. Still, my studs will definitely help align the new panel in the right place, even if there's not enough left of the original to provide a reference point.

But, I did notice something which annoyed me a bit when I was examining the bulkhead - the heater channel front section was welded to a plate which was welded to the remnants of the bulkhead, which was flapping about not properly secured to the chassis, or the rest of the body for that matter. So my door gaps may prove to be out when I correct that chaos, and despite all my careful checking and measuring I might end up having to cut the welds on my bottom door hinge repair again after all d'oh!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Between work and cold weather I haven't been able to do much on the bug this week, except rechecking door gaps (they're still correct), and cleaning up the front section of the heater channel.

Hmmm, looks like my concerns about Klokkerholm panels' longevity was right. The heater channels might be about a decade old and they hadn't been prepped properly (no primer or topcoat, just the shipping paint, and they still had the Klokkerholm paper labels on them), but when I was cleaning the rust off the outside edge of the heater channel (the bit which forms a double skin behind the inner wheelarch), I got a very nasty surprise.

I noticed a couple of rust pinholes so hit them with a hammer and screwdriver to check the extent of the rust, and repeatedly went straight through! The panel had rusted out in under a decade and the car hadn't even been on the road Shocked So had to weld in a nice patch panel to restore the strength...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good job the entire bug's not made from metal this thin, a 70s Italian car would seem built like a tank in comparison Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Got the (hopefully) final load of parts in over the past few days - left hand Napoleon's Hat end (slightly thinner than the other side, but assuming I'll just be replacing the end where the bolt holes are this shouldn't make much difference), door bottoms and skins (dammit, Klokkerholm!), and though I think I've already mentioned it, left hand inner wing too.

Also got the fiberglass Kamei-clone airdam, and a rear spoiler to fit above the rear window. It's supposed to slot into the window rubber but I'll be altering this slightly and mounting it above the window so it doesn't interfere with rear visibility.

Oh, and made my first cuts into the bulkhead to remove the remaining rotten metal; still need to decide on the best place to cut it so I can let the new panel in without giving myself too much extra intricate work vs losing original metal, but I think I can veer towards 'easy' rather than 'cautious' since the repair panel's metal is the same thickness anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: New user, and new project - 'Throwitbacktogether' ! Reply with quote

Trial fitment of bulkhead repair section went well. It lines up nicely with the existing repair panels, bolts down to the chassis perfectly, and appears to be plenty strong enough to support the body:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Only fly in the ointment (circled in red) - the outside and base line up well, but the inside of the bulkhead repair section doesn't line up with the VW version. However this could be an opportunity rather than a problem - it'll be pretty easy to weld in a patch panel to align the original bulkhead to the repair section once a section's cut out of the original on the inside, and if I do that it'll allow me to seam weld the bulkhead repair from the inside rather than having to plug weld it, which will improve strength.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also it looks like the smooth curves of the new inner panel will be stronger than the original with multiple folds / holes in it, so it's definitely not going to be a 'bad mod' changing the inner profile, it'll just mean the panel which covers the pedal mech will need to be reshaped a bit. Not that it matters, it's a really weird shape already because of all the wonky patch panels Rolling Eyes
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