Author |
Message |
n1 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: ME
|
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 10:53 am Post subject: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
This seemingly bad news might be good news? I recently took my Ghia into the shop as I couldn't diagnose what was wrong and I got the news that there was no compression on #3. I used the hose from a compression tester (borrowed from a friend) and some fittings and was going to try to pressurize #3 and hear where the leak was. I read about the leak down test.
As I was screwing the air hose into the head could feel that it was sloppy and loose even though it had bitten into the threads. I took it out and stuck my finger in there and could feel an insert was moving. Spinning and with some needle noses I could pull it out maybe an 1/8" or so but it won't spin out. Or at least I haven't been able to spin it out yet and I didn't try too hard because I don't want to make it worse.
Could this be the source of my leak? How do I get it out?
I'm excited but worried and scared at the same time. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Braukuche Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004 Posts: 10997
|
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
Pull the engine and mess with it. _________________ Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
|
Back to top |
|
|
67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9754 Location: Oregon
|
Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
That's weird!
It looks like there is an compression test adapter fitting stuck in the #3 spark plug hole.
Did the #3 sparkplug fit tightly in there before the problem reared it's ugly head?
Also the sparkplug hole looks restricted. That would limit how much spark is exposed to the raw fuel/air mixture in the cylinder.
Fish that thing out of the sparkplug hole and see if the threads are in good shape.
If the threads are messed up.
You can rent a sparkplug hole Time-Sert tool and buy a Time-Sert from aircooled.net. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4023 Location: WA
|
Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
If that motor has a lot of miles on it, it's time to replace the heads with new ones and maybe slap in a new set of PC's, that's a failure waiting to happen. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
n1 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: ME
|
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
I have been doing some research and whatever that is in there it looks weird. I can't find a picture of an insert that has the inside end some what closed like this seems to be. I'm going to make another effort tonight and see if can get it out. If not I guess the engine will be coming out this weekend so I can get at it.
Quote: |
It looks like there is an compression test adapter fitting stuck in the #3 spark plug hole.
Did the #3 sparkplug fit tightly in there before the problem reared its ugly head? |
I changed the plugs in the winter and I had no troubles getting them out or in. That said....you can't really see what's happening so if it felt ok then I could have been fooled. I did blow a spark plug a few years ago and the mechanic said there was already a heli-coil and he put a new one in but I don't know which cylinder it was and that's not a heli-coil.
If anyone has a suggestion on how to get it out of there I'm all ears? I have some screw extractors but I don't think any that big. I'm thinking buying a bigger one is my best bet. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SCG9860 Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2022 Posts: 53 Location: Lakeside, Ca.
|
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
Can you contact the mechanic that last replaced the insert to inquire about what he installed? If not, you can try an insert removal tool. Google "insert removal tool". Several options will appear. I would try the type with the tapered blade and the T-handle attached. The blade will cut into the edge of the insert, you apply a downward force, and hopefully back it out in the counterclockwise direction. They're relatively cheap. They're more intended to remove wire / heli-coil type inserts versus keensert type inserts (what appears to be in your head). However, I have successfully removed both types previously using this type of tool on non-staked keenserts. Yours doesn't appear to be staked based upon the photos. You'll need to validate the hole size to purchase the appropriately sized tool.
This suggestion might help you to get the insert out of the head. Then you can determine nexts steps. I think the engine will likely need to come out but hopefully not. I hope this helps. Good luck. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
n1 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: ME
|
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
Thanks. Great info. I'm going to try with what I have on hand tonight and if it doesn't budge I will look into some special tools. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4023 Location: WA
|
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
If you have snap ring plyers that spread snap rings you might be able to work the insert with them or put some loctite on an old plug, screw it in and let it cure and when you remove the plug the insert should come out with the plug. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
n1 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: ME
|
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
Well I'm an idiot. It was the adapter to the compression tester. The hose that the adapters screw onto is 14mm as well so I didn't notice right away. I tried a bunch of flat screwdrivers until one of them bound in the hole of the adapter and then was able to back out the adapter.
Right as the adapter came free I heard the sound of a small piece of metal falling. I can't see anything in there even with the the dual port intake off and was alarmed. Did something fall into the cylinder? The adapter is one piece and an o ring. All accounted for.
I learned another thing. I thought I might try to thread a spark plug back in loosely to keep crud out but to my surprise it slid right into it's seated depth with no threading. Looks like this cylinder was drilled out and retapped already. I'm wondering if that was the last bit of a heli-coil I heard falling into the cylinder? I guess I'm pulling the engine to check it out. Weekend project. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3031 Location: Vermont
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7389
|
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
You can always use a borescope/endoscope camera to view the cylinder area to see if there is anything in there instead of taking the engine out and tearing it apart.
https://www.amazon.com/borescope-camera/s?k=borescope+camera |
|
Back to top |
|
|
c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8211 Location: San Dimas
|
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
This.
Quote: |
I learned another thing. I thought I might try to thread a spark plug back in loosely to keep crud out but to my surprise it slid right into it's seated depth with no threading. Looks like this cylinder was drilled out and retapped already. I'm wondering if that was the last bit of a heli-coil I heard falling into the cylinder? I guess I'm pulling the engine to check it out. Weekend project. |
When i was in high school, i had a valve job done on a set of heads for my 1968 Dodge Charger. I got everything back together but the ground bolt that used to be at the end of the ground strap was missing. I replaced it with a random bolt from the garage. When we started the motor (Bang Bang Bang)we found the original ground bolt in the cylinder where it fell off the cable. I still keep that original ground bolt in my tool box for 40+ years. It caused a complete rebuild and I had to ride a motorcycle thru an abnormally cold winter saving money for the rebuild. The whole experience was miserable. I wish you a better outcome.
_________________ GhiaBuild
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481184
1967 DC build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693583&highlight=67+dc
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
n1 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: ME
|
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
Alright. I feel a little better. Thanks. I've been contemplating different ways to rig up a small hose to my shop vac and alternate that with the compressor. No way to be sure it's clear though without taking it apart or using the scope like 74 Thing mentioned. I might ask around to see if anyone I know has a scope.
I saw one video where the guy cranked the motor after drilling out new threads , leaving the plug out, claiming it blasts all the shavings out? Looked sketchy at best. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kingkarmann Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003 Posts: 4111
|
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
n1 wrote: |
Alright. I feel a little better. Thanks. I've been contemplating different ways to rig up a small hose to my shop vac and alternate that with the compressor. No way to be sure it's clear though without taking it apart or using the scope like 74 Thing mentioned. I might ask around to see if anyone I know has a scope.
I saw one video where the guy cranked the motor after drilling out new threads , leaving the plug out, claiming it blasts all the shavings out? Looked sketchy at best. |
I tried to find top dead center with a wooden dowel.
Of course it wedged in the cylinder. The end snapped off.
Shop vac and a bit of fabrication saved the day
_________________ "Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.”
Mike Gerson
What is your "Bespoke Reality"? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
n1 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: ME
|
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
I borrowed a scope from a friend. That's not coming out easily.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
kingkarmann Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003 Posts: 4111
|
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Is a Loose Spark Plug Insert my Entire Problem? |
|
|
n1 wrote: |
I borrowed a scope from a friend. That's not coming out easily.
|
While it's frustrating you're lucky to have found it while the engine was static.
Pull the engine and remove the head and you a proper Helicoil repair.
The most you will have invested is time.
Please give us an update when you have it back up and running.
Consider yourself lucky. _________________ "Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.”
Mike Gerson
What is your "Bespoke Reality"? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ghiamanjc Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2020 Posts: 146 Location: Vancouver BC
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
n1 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: ME
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|