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92 Jetta brake upgrade
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oprn
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

I have a '92 Jetta that the brakes have always been sketchy on. They are all new and working as intended by VW but seem to me to be inadequate. Yesterday I had the wheels off the wife's 2000 Lupo and compared the brakes. I am thinking they just might fit the Jetta. Bigger VENTED rotors and calipers, same wheel bolt pattern, same bolt size on the axle, same bolt spacing on the bottom of the strut. Not sure yet about the tie rod end and ball joint bolt hole diameter or the axle splines.

What do you think? Anyone done this swap? The Polo I suspect would be the same parts as the Lupo too.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As you can see here the Jetta rims fit the Lupo.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

The solid front rotors on the 91/92 golfs and jettas never lasted or worked very well. Definitely recommend vented fronts with a good street type pad. Factory rear drums and rotors should be o.k.

We don't have the polo in the US so don't know for sure if they swap. Otherwise just buy new from FCP or ECS and you should be good.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

MkIII Golf/Jetta spindles with 10” vented rotors are a direct swap. So are G-60 Corrado 11”…. If you can find them.


Otherwise, vented rotors & corresponding pads from a same year GTI are a direct swap to your existing calipers & spindles.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

Thanks!

So is the MKIII '93 to '98 then? And is it still 4 bolt wheels?

I went from the '92 Jetta to the 2002 Jetta and they are 5 bolt wheels. I think '99 and up are all 5 bolt.

GTIs and Corrados Are as scarce as hen's teeth in this part of the world.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

Yessir! The MkIII is from 93 to the first half of 99. Yes they are still 4x100.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

The following I will add, might or might not help you in your quest:

I do see that you run a Lupo, a VW model never intended to be sold in Canada, so I do expect that you have somewhat access to parts supply & knowhow support for such car. The Lupo was a small compact car mainly based on the Polo of that era (PQ23).
Historicaly, most of the watercooled VW fleet had been fitted with a 4x100mm bolt pattern. It basically just started to deviate from that by the time the 1996 Passat came out (incidentally based on an Audi platform), where 5x112mm bolt pattern was in use. Before that, the 1992 Corrado and Passat VR6s introduced the 5x100mm bolt pattern which was also carried over into the 1994 Golf VR6 and 1996 Golf GTI Anniversary models. These ones were commemorative of the 20th anniversary of the GTI model that, depending on the sales market, could be had with the 82kW diesel TDI engine and the more known 16V 110kW gasoline engines. These were the best of the best of what VW could offer based on the 3rd Golf generation, apart from the VR6.
The 5x100mm bolt pattern was brought commonplace to VW by the Audi A3 (again, another vehicle not destined to North America) that not only had this newer bolt pattern in all versions but also was coupled to brake disc rotors all around and that finally also found its way into VW when the 1997 Golf came out. From that point on, any newer models sitting below the Golf, like the 2002 Polo, also have switched to that pattern. Currently in Europe, the only VW vehicle being factory fitted with a 4x100mm bolt pattern is the NSF platform (PQ12). I went to briefly check, and those are being fitted with the 1S0 615 301 H ventilated front brake rotors.

Here in Europe, for the 3rd generation watercooled cars, we no longer had the Jetta nameplate, instead we had the (same bodied, but EU spec) Wolfsburg/Brussels nameplate Vento models and the newer Karmann-built Golf Variant (station wagon). Apart from body differences, mechanical parts were similar between North America and Europe specification vehicles, though different suppliers are to be expected on each one. Both 1996 EU spec Golf/Vento models could be had with 239x12mm ventilated front brake rotors 321 615 301, alternatively TRW DF1516, Brembo 08.4177.10, Bosch 0 986 479 825, ATE 24.0312-0106.1 up to 256x20mm ventilated front brake rotors 321 615 301 D/6N0 615 301 D, alternatively Brembo 09.5166.14, Bosch 0 986 479 853, ATE 24.0120-0128.1 all these being in 4x100mm bolt patterns.

Regarding the Lupo, those, among others could be had with 239x15mm front brake rotors JZW 615 301 (factory fitted with 6E0 615 301) and 239x18mm front brake rotors JZW 615 301 L (factory fitted with 6N0 615 301 F), alternatively TRW DF2780, Bosch 0 986 478 621.

Since a couple of years now, VW makes available Genuine Parts in Economy grade that are produced by an alternative supplier, they are spotted by the traditional JZW prefix instead the factory-fit model-prefix of the original supplier.

Last but not least, I read that portion where it is mentioned the tie rod and ball joint hole diameter but brake rotors are just that, brake rotors. It is a disc that one bolts into a hub. The big issues when we want to upgrade into bigger rotors is: we need compatible calipers and space clearance from rims. I see you have 14 inch Silverstone (teardrop) wheels. Well, those Lupo and Polo models (PQ23) could have been supplied from factory with basic spec 13 inch wheels, depending on sales market and trim. If the smaller vented rotors cleared 13 inch wheels, I guess you are good to go. Or I did not understood it right?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:16 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed information. What started this whole quest was a need to buy new rotors and pads for the Lupo. This led to comparing the front brakes on the Jetta which are considerably smaller. I am finding it a bit confusing and hesitant to order anything. A quick measurement of the present rotors indicate a thickness of 19.5 mm with a caliper. The diameter seems to be 266mm with the wheel off and eye balling it with a tape measure which of course is not real accurate. There is nothing listed for these sizes on the Autodoc website I have been buying parts from.

The car is a 2000 1.4 L 16 valve auto transmission of Japanese origin but the brakes rotors were replaced on arrival to Canada by a shop of extremely dubious character it turns out... so the present brake parts may not be correct. The Rabbit/Jetta/Audi Fox 4 x 100 x 13" wheels fit the rear but do not clear the front disc brakes. The 14" Silverstone wheels in the picture are actually the stock wheels from the '92 Jetta and do fit over the front Lupo discs. The Lupo arrived with what I believe to be aftermarket wheels. I will post a picture of them. If you could help me to identify the correct front rotors I would appreciate it!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These wheels also fit. They came on a VW Fox (not to be confused with the Audi Fox) parts car.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

As you might possibly know well, the Lupo could be had in several versions, some of them just in some markets. The 13 inch wheels were most of the times paired with the more basic trims/versions, in which smaller brake disc rotors were fitted.

If your Lupo is the one with the 100PS engine (codes AFK,ANM,AQQ,AUB), correct front brake rotors are 256x20mm (6N0 615 301 D). On those, thickness limit is 18mm. I don't think 256x25mm (6N0 615 301 E) were fitted on those cars, these last ones I guess were fitted into the GTI 1.6 model.
You can get outside of VW Genuine Parts brake rotors by going with Brembo: https://www.bremboparts.com/europe/en/catalogue/disc/09-5166-14

But if your Lupo is the one with the 75PS engine (codes AHW,AKQ,APE,AUA), correct front brake rotors could also be 239x18mm (6N0 615 301 C/JZW 615 301 L) or (6N0 615 301 F/JZW 615 301 L). On those, thickness limit is 17mm.

Your Lupo has brake rotors in all corners? Since you mention that it has aftermarket rotors now, how about the calipers? Are they still the original supplied by Volkswagen? Calipers fitted by Volkswagen could have been either supplied by A. Teves (ATE) or Girling-Lucas (TRW)

About the wheels, sorry I can't see from where they had come from. They are re-drill to 4x100mm. Since you mention your car in JPN spec, I guess they are aftermarket wheels with PCD for japanese brands. But wait, are the other ones you show Genuine Pirelli wheels? Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

The Lupo has drums on the rear. This is what the owners manual identifies it as.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As for the wheels, what is special about Pirellis? I assumed that was what the big "P" stood for but they do have a VW/Audi stamp and part number on them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

About the Pirelli wheels: by 1982 in Germany, the updated GTI was available in a newer special model, the Pirelli, both 3 and 5 door. Other than an array of features, those cars came with the alloy wheels featuring the Pirelli P. If you look at the wheel part-number you spot the prefix 17. That is the prefix for the Golf/Rabbit/Caribe models. That's great you have a set, they aren't just another alloy wheel. I like them, that's why it caught my eye, it would have been insane if you had shipped them for free to my address. Laughing

From the other shared pictures, I see that your Lupo is the 75PS version and since it is Japanese Specification, it has the Anti-Lock Brake System.
Did you check if the calipers are still the correct genuine VW parts? Post a picture if you can.

I expect the correct specification for your Lupo brake rotors to be 239x18mm if equipment code is 1LB,1LM,1ZC. This gives Genuine VW parts (6N0 615 301 C/6N0 615 301 F/JZW 615 301 L) or Brembo part 09.6799.11 .
It would be great if you double check the engine code and equipment code for both the engine type and brake system your Lupo have. If the engine hasn't been too messed up, the production sticker with the engine code can be found on top of the cam belt cover or near by. The equipment codes can be found on the production sticker that seldom is found nearby the spare wheel housing in the boot. Would you check and report back?
Hope this is helpful to you.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

The Perelli P slots were available on mk2 Jettas here in the States, ‘86-89ish.


If the 13” wheels don’t fit the front of the Polo, it probably has 10” rotors. I probably have a few I can measure to see if they’re the same as what you have, post pics.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

I am missing one center cap for the Pirelli wheels and another one has some damage. It would be nice to find two good used center caps, or even new if they were not too dear...

Here is the sticker beside the spare tire. Tomorrow after the Missus gets home from work I will pull off a wheel and look for VW part numbers on the rotor. And yes thanks for the help, we are narrowing it down!



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

Ok, looks like we have this nailed down:
Reading from the aufbau sticker, your Lupo has engine code AUA and equipment codes 1AC = Anti-lock brake system (ABS), 1KH = Drum brakes rear and 1ZJ = Disc brakes front. This determines that the correct front brake rotors are 256x20mm (6N0 615 301 D/321 615 301 D). These brake rotors are Polo/Passat parts also.
Before, I had wrote other dimensions/references because navigating through data from several sources isn't always easy without the vehicle full specifications and as usual, there's a lot of contradicting info available online, so I went with a few trusted suppliers:

https://www.ate-brakes.com/catalogues/pdf-catalogue/
front brake rotors 256x20mm 24.0120-0128.1 - 420128 or 24.0320-0128.1 - 520128

https://www.bremboparts.com/europe/en/catalogue/
front brake rotors 256x20mm 09.5166.11 or 09.5166.14

Since your location is Canada, I highly recomend the best metal treatment brake rotors you can source. Just for you to know, in my neck of woods, all that snow visible in one of your pictures usualy doesn't fall, actually no snow at all for at least the last 25 years...

Please have a look if you find out what calipers you have currently. Are they genuine VW, what part-number?

And also, I previously was scratching my head, wondering how much messed up that Lupo was because I spotted the warning switch in the dash between the middle air vent outlets and you described this was a year 2000 model Lupo. Do not know who told you that, but: this Lupo is in fact a Model Year 2002, so the warning switch in that position makes sense and it is correct.

It is interesting to note that they went with a Standard (Basis) to build up to a Japanese Specification vehicle. No doubt it is a Standard albeit with a lot of options! (2JG = Body-colored bumpers, 4R1 = Power windows, 0Y2 = Air Conditioning, 4X1 = Side air bags, 1AC = Anti-lock brake system [ABS],...). Nevertheless, it was factory supplied with steel wheels (6Jx14) and full plastic wheel covers. We can see why someone had the thought of adding alloy wheels...

... and congratulate your Missus, her Lupo is a Brussels built-Forest factory car! That factory has a looong story, erected by D'Ieteren for local assembly of not only Studebaker cars but also Beetles, has seen Porsche 356s (convertible D), Golf III, Seat Leon, VW Passat, Audi A1 among some other more models being built there. From a few years now, it is a 100% dedicated Audi factory, so much so that nowadays only Audi e-tron and e-tron Sportback come off the assembly lines... wait, maybe this much info will lead you into serious trouble, suddenly there might be the risk of your Missus demanding an upgrade to the newest or best builds from that place, an Audi e-tron or a Porsche 356 convertible D. Ahhh! Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
The Perelli P slots were available on mk2 Jettas here in the States, ‘86-89ish.


Great to know, that is interesting, thanks. What models were they, any special versions?
Were they Westmoreland, Puebla or Germany built?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

You are absolutely correct! This is a 2002 Lupo, I was confusing it with the wife's back up work car which is a 2000 RHD Forester.

The caliper appears to be original VW (Lucas brand). It looks like I can still get part numbers off the pads. Here are the pictures.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I haven't opened up the rear brakes yet but I suspect they are still fine. The fronts have about 30% of the pad left. I want to make a bulk order and get a few things ahead that I know I will need. Things like the AC clutch assembly, oil and air filters, spark plugs etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

That's great you still have the original VW calipers (Girling-Lucas). Nowadays that legacy product is taken over by ZF-TRW.

I then went ahead and had a look on the items you mentioned whishing to change/buy.
For the spark plugs you do not need much work, just go with what the manual says and that is NGK PZFR5D-11. This is my advice.
I am relying with european databases so please be aware that since your Lupo is Japanese Specification, it may require different items (references) from these stated below, as I do not have access to Japanese Specification data. I did not include any data for the brakes in the rear axle and also omitted the service to the A/T (there's oil and filter).

From Mann Filter:
Air Cleaner Filter C4287/2 (dusty environments C4287/1)
Engine Oil Filter W712/52
Fuel Filter WK512
Cabin Air Filter FP2882 (Biofunctional filtration)
-warning- please be aware that Japanese Specification might play here a very important role. Check carefully if the filter case states spare part numbers because it may be and you should follow it. Also, if there is an adapter frame 1J0 819 648 you have to use FP2862 instead.

From Bosch (filters are most likely Knecht Filter):
Front Brake Pads 0 986 494 010
Front Brake Rotors 0 986 478 308
Air Cleaner Filter 1 457 433 716
Engine Oil Filter 0 451 103 318
Fuel Filter 0 450 905 316
Cabin Air Filter 0 986 628 509 (biofunctional filtration)
-warning- please be aware that Japanese Specification might play here a very important role. Check carefully if the filter case states spare part numbers because it may be and you should follow it. Also, if there is an adapter frame 1J0 819 648

From Febi:
Front Brake Rotors 06512
Air Cleaner Filter 30361
Engine Oil Filter 22532
Fuel Filter 17635
Cabin Air Filter 11566


From ATE brake:
Front Brake Pads 13.0460-2821.2 - 602821
Front Brake Rotors 24.0120-0128.1 - 420128 or 24.0320-0128.1 - 520128

From Brembo Brake:
Front Brake Pads P 85 032
Front Brake Rotors 09.5166.11 or 09.5166.14

Genuine Volkswagen Parts:
Front Brake Pads 1HM 698 151/1HM 698 151 A/357 698 151 E/6N0 698 151 A/6N0 698 151 B/JZW 698 151 F
Front Brake Rotors 6N0 615 301 D/321 615 301 D
Air Cleaner Filter 036 129 620 C/036 129 620 F
Engine Oil Filter 030 115 561 AB/030 115 561 AN/030 115 561 E/030 115 561 F/030 115 561 K/030 115 561 P/030 115 561 S/030 115 561 T/030 115 561 Q/030 115 561 L/030 115 561 B/030 115 561 AD/030 115 561 AA
Fuel Filter 6X0 201 511/6X0 201 511 A/6X0 201 511 B
Cabin Air Filter 1J0 819 644/1J0 819 644 A/JZW 819 653
-warning- please be aware that Japanese Specification might play here a very important role. Check carefully if the filter case states spare part numbers because it may be and you should follow it. Also, if there is an adapter frame 1J0 819 648

Since this all started with whishing vented front brake rotors for your Jetta, have you decided what are you going to do on that one? The Lupo has beefier Lucas calipers that do not clear 13 inch wheels but VW do have several systems with vented rotors for smaller calipers that support the 4x100mm PCD pattern.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

Thank you so much for this! In the 4 years we have owned this Lupo you have been the most help of anyone!

I checked with our closest VW dealership before buying the car and they assured me there would be no problem sourcing parts from them. Ha! what a joke! Once we had the car they washed their hands of us completely and refused to even try!

Thanks also to TDCTDI for your insight on the '92 Jetta. I have not yet settled on a fate for that car. I have too many cars but of all the later model Jettas we have owned I love that one the most. To handles and drive much better than any of the newer ones and has far more interior room for us taller people. Unfortunately like all Jettas the sheet metal worms are having their way with it so I could not bring myself to run it in the salt slush now, it would have to be relegated to a summer only car and I already have several of those.

If I decide to keep it then it will get a brake upgrade based on the info you provided. Thanks for that! And yes it came to me with 14" rims and right now is sitting on 17" with low profile tires. It's actually in pretty nice shape for the year, it was our second daughter's car and she and I painted it about 10 years ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

Let me know if you want a solid shell, I have a clean titled, ‘89 coupe with no driveline that has Bilsteins, mkIII front & rear brakes & GLI recaro interior.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

Thanks for the offer TDCTDI, I can only imagine what the shipping cost would be to Alberta Canada!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: 92 Jetta brake upgrade Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Thank you so much for this! In the 4 years we have owned this Lupo you have been the most help of anyone!


No biggie, that is the way I view The Samba, a community of VW users. Looking forward to see any VW running beyond.
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