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ubercrap
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Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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Note the date on the start of that thread. I looked on ....lurked....on some of that thread and was part of other discussions on STF and possibly here. I havd not yet finished rereading all pages of that thread. I will say three things about this:
1. The need. Is it necessary.
Yes.
With a zillion miles of driving spent across five type 4 cars......in four seasons environments that progressively got upgraded as weather and driving required.....I can tell you that the stock 55 Amp alternator is "just adequate"....just.......if EVERYTHING is stock.
Meaning.....
Headlights
Stereo
Fuel pump and ignition
No large accessories
No air conditioning.
Clean....near factory level connections.....everywhere.
If you have a nice stock, restored car.....a good condition stock 55 Amp will do.
However, I have ALWAYS at most points in time had a bad ass stereo with excellent efficient speakers (for the eras I was in), head unit and amps. Not to get too deep into stereo and amplifiers here, but how many amps it will pull at peak base hits is directly proportional to sound levels set, music type, what speakers you are driving .....and how well the capacitor systems in the Amp are set up to deliver power at those peak points that are higher than the car power system really can deliver.
Some of the best amps back in the day I could never afford. You can get better for cheaper now.
So a good 4 channel Amp with a max steady state (not peak,) 100 watts per channel ....400 watts....will need ~33 amps at maximum listening levels. When you are not cranking loud....figure about 15 amps. This is at 12 volts.
These stereo systems are actually set up to run at 13.8 to 14 volts. If you rectify them and run straight from battery and run 14 volts....that 400 watts @33 amps turns to 400 -28 amps. See the efficiency?
Run better more efficient speakers (all at 90+dB rating or better) and you may never exceed 150 to 200 watts demand on the Amp.
It's all about parts and planning.
Enough about stereos. An excellent MODEST stereo will steal 15 amps minimum.
So....years of driving that eventually saw many NIGHTS of long driving hours.....in cold weather.....with rain/mist.....and better than stock headlights. With the good stereo.....all I could afford to run with the stock alternator was 55/65 low beams and 100 watt high beam inners. The headlights were a MUST HAVE. Thats 28 amps compared to 18-20 on stock lamps.
But the gist is that driving a 411/412 at night....with all headlights on, dash blower motor on, gas furnace on, wipers on and stock radio on, fuel injection on......the stock 55 Amp alternator is just enough.....barely.
There are some age related losses. The fuel pump and wiper motor start dragging with age and you lose a few more amps. Add connection and ground issues.....lots of things to keep right. There were issues in these full usage moments where we had dimming when blinkers were on and noticeable richness issues as voltage and wattage rose and fell.
So yes.....if you are seriously driving these cars at night in cold weather....AND you have non stock accessories at the level I described.....you could do BETTER with a larger alternator.
2. For the level I described, getting the 70 Amp upgrade that was available for Westphalia campers would probably be all you need.
But.....from what I have read, finding one these days will run you close to $350- $400 (remember that the thread in 914 world is a decade old).....availability now is low and a lot of them are rebuilt and quality and lifespan have had issues.
But it bolts right in with a different external regulator box. That also does not grow on trees and has issues.
In looking across many threads and searching on my own.....I came across the same basic GM alternator that was mentioned in the 914 thread. It would be the best candidate.
It is a 105 Amp alternator. While that sounds like a little too much....it's not because as noted in the thread it really only generates the amps required. I will post my information on what I have been looking at for alternators later.
Technically, the 105 Amp "basically" fits meaning while it's a little larger,.....it has the correct mounting points geometry but some trimming needs to be done to the main pivot mount and getting fore and aft positioning and possibly some sheet metal trimming.
That being said.....it would just be easier to make a new pivot point bracket to bolt to the cooling shroud....I think I saw a photo of one being modified in that thread....just make a new one. I do not yet see that "machine work" needs to be done.
Sure it would be super clean to have machine work done.....but it's about the same level of work required when clearancing rockers for swivel feet. If you are careful....save yourself $100 and make it work.
The other issues are the fore and aft fitting, shimming and locating to make sure the fan pulley lines up with the crank pulley. Then there is the fact that the fan either pushes or pulls depending on which pulley (there are many available).
Feeding the back of the alternator with the existing open rubber manifold boot? No. Totally disagree.
First, Jake Raby already found that that rubber elbow air hole robs some significant cooling air partly in volume and partly in the turbulence it creates and partly in the drop of static pressure inside of the shroud in that section.
It would be far easier to rig up a sheet metal cover/scoop that dips down past the muffler so that the inlets in the back of the alternator draw air from someplace other than right off the muffler.....if it's draw THROUGH....or if it draws from inside the engine compartment....I would make a port to to the bellows or intake boot.
Its all just tinkering and tuning like anything else. Very doable.
3. The need for 160 amps. In a 914? Really?
Unless you are running 1000 watt competition sub-base system at 13.8 volts....requiring 72 amps peak.....I don't see it. Where you even gonna put that in a 914? 
Do I see "maybe" making the 105 Amp GM alternator a little more robust by swapping in a 160 Amp armature.....maybe....but not really needed.
My mk6 golf....with AC, a factory 10 speaker stereo, damn good headlights, high speed wipers, electronic fuel injection, heated seats, mirrors and washer nozzles, huge blower in the dash, two radiator fans, AC and electric power steering.....has MORE than it needs with a 140 Amp alternator.
But aside from the choice to go to 160 amps.....is that kit worth it? $800....probably not bad a bad deal. All new cables set up for the vehicle in question, pulley selected and worked out, mounting worked out.
If you have the money it's not bad.
You could do it yourself for about $300-ish. Ray |
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ubercrap
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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Agreed, even with my limited experience driving these, I think an upgraded alternator is really a good idea for those reasons, especially for adding upgraded headlights (which is why it piqued my interest), and I think are sorely needed. For the bus, I thought I read somewhere that any that came with the gas heater got the 70? Oh, and my coupe I'm working on does have A/C as well. The kit is overkill and a bit expensive, but apparently it works well according to the thread- just depends on your time /money /skill tradeoff, I guess. Maybe I have more money than time at this point in my life, can't decide. Anyway, I wouldn't have pegged you as a sound system guy, Ray! 
_________________
'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan
Last edited by ubercrap on Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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| ubercrap wrote: |
| Agreed, even with my limited experience driving these, I think an upgraded alternator is really a good idea for those reasons, especially for adding upgraded headlights (which is why it piqued my interest), and I think are sorely needed. For the bus, I thought I read somewhere that any came with the gas heater got the 70? Oh, and my coupe I'm working on does have A/C as well. The kit is overkill and a bit expensive, but apparently it works well according to the thread- just depends on your time /money /skill tradeoff, I guess. Maybe I have more money than time at this point in my life, can't decide. Anyway, I wouldn't have pegged you as a sound system guy, Ray! |
Sound system...oh yeah! But not sub-base type thumping. Concert hall quality...low distortion, high volume. Even large "non-sub base" woofers with wide range generate resonant sub-base.
The stereo I have in the box.....collected over the past three years thats going into my 412....I am not worthy of!
10 very fine speakers....6.75 oversized. Some are NOS classic...last of the good stuff Blaupunkt from early 90's Velocity VX573. Some are the last of the German designed but China built (disappeared in about 2004-5) like the Blaupunkt CX-170 components .
Some are Pioneer dedicated 6.5" mid-bass....the TSM 650pro. Awesome. All the good stuff...wires, insulation and sealing.
The head unit is a Kenwood KBC998...blue tooth, SiriusXM, CD, line in, dual USB, SD card, I-pod/phone inputs. 13 band EQ and interrogative software for soundscapes and speaker analysis. Compressed music "decompressor" software....50w x 4 mosfet with a fifth dedicated channel for sub-bass (which I dont care about)....this tied together with an Audio Control DM608 digital signal processor.
Still shopping for an amp but I think I found it.
Back to the alternator!
Not to add too many things to my 412...that make it less of a 50 year old car.....but the conversation in the thread from 914 world about alternator adjustability......I am going to get rid of that issue.
After working on my Golf and replacing all of the serpentine belt tensioners....I was marveling at how well they work. I can buy a factory VW spring tensioner for about $45 and find an unobtrusive, non destructive way to mount it to the cooling shroud...then solidly mount the alternator....fixed mounting.
The tensioners are cool. Cock it back out of the way to replace belt...insert holding pin. Replace belt. Cock spring and pull out pin. Belt perfectly tensioned. One less alignment and Allen key issue to worry about. Ray |
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ubercrap
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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It appears the rebuilt alternator that came with the car is a 75amp anyway, once I dug it out, so that'll go in as is!
_________________
'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan |
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ubercrap
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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OK, no, this is a 55amp the model number is 75, haha. I see the difference between the 55 and 70 looking at pics. I have this rebuilt alt that came with the car, might as well use it. Had to source a new back tin w/ harness. I have a new shroud to tin boot for the 55 amp ready. I've looked over the samba thread covering the pitfalls of too long studs, etc..on the rebuilds and the fact there should be a gasket between the tin and alt. Now, what I seem to still be missing I believe is the sealing ring (discontinued, alas) and the alternator is missing what I believe is a capacitor (small black box on the back)? Is this available separately? Because I don't see one that looks right when I search.
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'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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The supression capacitor has the VW no 021903295 and equivalents looks to be available at several places.
VWs own site for classic parts also have it:
https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.com/catalog/en_global/part/021903295
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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ubercrap
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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Yes, that's it! I must have been experiencing brain failure, because I thought I was looking...
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'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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| ubercrap wrote: |
| Yes, that's it! I must have been experiencing brain failure, because I thought I was looking... |
There is an NOS one on Ebay for ~$28
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192872330426
Ray |
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ubercrap
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 upgraded alternator being offered for for sale here |
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Yep, bought it already from eBay! Got some gasket material as well to make the tin seal. Now just need the sealing ring...
_________________
'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan |
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